Herr Flood

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Grimlish
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Re: Herr Flood

Post by Grimlish » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:26 pm

ellis9 wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:10 pm
You are only one nationality!

In Toby Floods case, he could have potentially never stepped foot in Germany but yet can represent them!

Without sounding disrespectful, how anyone cannot understand that playing for more than one country is a joke, is beyond belief!
Well it may be beyond your comprehension Ellis but it certainly isn't beyond belief. Plenty of folk identify with a country without ever having been there. As tjs brilliantly demonstrates allegiances to more than one country is certainly possible too. Did you take a look at the report about Bledington Ellis? How English (substitute 'nationality' as preferred) are you really, and how do you know?

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Re: Herr Flood

Post by ellis9 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:33 pm

tjs10 wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:15 pm
ellis9 wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:33 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:15 pm


Nationality is not so black and white these days (and hasn't been for many years).

Why not extend your argument to "you are either from Leicester or not" and only have people from Leicester playing for Leicester Tigers?
I know it's not black and white but once you have played for your country, whether that's the country you were born in, the country you grew up in or the country one of your blood relatives comes from, that's the only country you should play for.
On that basis do you object to Eddie Jones coaching England given he has also coached Australia, and Japan?

"National representation" surely extends beyond those playing on the field, even if World Rugby only chooses to legislate the players.

You can easily be more than one nationality.

My kids are dual UK/Australian citizens, with two passports each. Why should they choose one or other nationality when they are a combination of the two?
No, the coach is different, however I feel there were/are good enough English coaches who should have got the England job ahead of Jones.

If your kids ever get to play international rugby I'd expect them to pick one country and once they had played for that country, they'd not be able to play for any other country again.

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Re: Herr Flood

Post by ellis9 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:36 pm

Grimlish wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:26 pm
ellis9 wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:10 pm
You are only one nationality!

In Toby Floods case, he could have potentially never stepped foot in Germany but yet can represent them!

Without sounding disrespectful, how anyone cannot understand that playing for more than one country is a joke, is beyond belief!
Well it may be beyond your comprehension Ellis but it certainly isn't beyond belief. Plenty of folk identify with a country without ever having been there. As tjs brilliantly demonstrates allegiances to more than one country is certainly possible too. Did you take a look at the report about Bledington Ellis? How English (substitute 'nationality' as preferred) are you really, and how do you know?
No I didn't look at that report. I was born in England and have lived my whole life so far in England so I am English. Even if I moved to live abroad for the rest of my life, I would class myself as English. However, I have not represented my country so based on the rules, if I did move aboard, I would eventually be able to play for that country if I chose to. However, if I had represented my country and then moved abroad, I shouldn't be allowed to play for that new country!

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Re: Herr Flood

Post by Grimlish » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:05 pm

Ellis, you need to see that vid more than you know.

ellis9
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Re: Herr Flood

Post by ellis9 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:29 pm

Grimlish wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:05 pm
Ellis, you need to see that vid more than you know.
No I don't. If I have Welsh, Zimbabwean, American and Danish heritage, I still class myself as English. I wouldn't play for any other country.

You're missing my point. Even if I do have foreign heritage and I chose to represent any of them, once I had done so, I don't agree that I would also be allowed to play for another one.

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Re: Herr Flood

Post by AngusMcCoatup » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:42 pm

ellis9 wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:10 pm
You are only one nationality!

In Toby Floods case, he could have potentially never stepped foot in Germany but yet can represent them!
Ah! but there were plenty of Floods in Germany! Especially after the 617 Squadron delivered the bouncer..
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But to that one person you may be the world!

Grimlish
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Re: Herr Flood

Post by Grimlish » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:55 pm

So you have seen it then Ellis. I'm not missing your point I just don't agree. As tjs made clear having more than one allegiance is perfectly natural. It really doesn't have to be exclusively to one artificial notion of nation in this day and age. Look at all those English applying for Irish passports and the like.

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Re: Herr Flood

Post by ellis9 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:03 pm

That's the point. I don't believe you should be able to play for more than one country.

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Re: Herr Flood

Post by strawclearer » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:53 pm

Looks like Eoin Morgan would be out of his job as England's ODI and T20 cricket captain then!?
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ellis9
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Re: Herr Flood

Post by ellis9 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:04 pm

Indeed! If it was down to me, he would never have played for England as he had already played for Ireland.

You don't need to point these things out to me.

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Re: Herr Flood

Post by HantsTiger » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:11 pm

We're not talking about Morgan stepping up a level or a Solomona playing mercenary with the residency laws, we're talking about someone 'downshifting' to support a lower tier nation. Why is this a problem? There are a few players who could do this at the tail end of their career (Tim Visser being Dutch for example) after a lay off period from their Tier 1 National team BUT I think it should only be allowed through parentage NOT residency so that players can't just go an live somewhere and start rocking up the caps.

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Re: Herr Flood

Post by strawclearer » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:46 pm

ellis9 wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:04 pm
Indeed! If it was down to me, he would never have played for England as he had already played for Ireland.

You don't need to point these things out to me.
If I was simply pointing something out to you, I'd have pm'd you. I was actually hoping to engage with others on this forum whose opinions I value almost as much as I do yours!
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
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Re: Herr Flood

Post by tjs10 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:59 am

But why should it be different for coaches than for players if you want to take the rigid approach?

On that basis, one country for life should be one country for life...for ALL.


Personally I don't object to players representing more than one country during their career, as long as there is a sensible gap between representative periods to differentiate.

I also think that representation based solely on residency should be for FIRST representation only.
ie, once you play for a country of birth/blood, you can't qualify for a second country based on residency. However, you COULD choose to play for a second country through blood/birth if you wish, after a period of 3 years absence.

That would allow Pacific Islanders to play for their island later in their careers, even if they previously represented the All Blacks for example, but would limit representative "tourism", thus allowing Tier 2 nations to have stronger, more competitive sides without cheapening the representative "honour" too much.

Just because it seems clear-cut to you, with your English family & English domicile, doesn't mean it will be as clear for other people, who have more multi-cultural heritage.

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Re: Herr Flood

Post by Cardiff Tig » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:30 am

Am I correct in thinking that this is a result of rugby becoming an Olympic sport? Isn't it a requirement that individuals can represent another country if they qualify, else the sport can't be in the Olympics?

If sevens weren't in the Olympics then Flood wouldn't be able to change allegiance.

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Re: Herr Flood

Post by tjs10 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:18 am

Correct, Flood can only now change allegiance due to rugby 7s being an Olympic sport.

Residency rules have changed considerably over the years.

Initially I think a player could play for any country of their choosing as long as they played/lived in that country.
Then laws were introduced requiring a blood link or a 3 year period of residency prior to qualifying for a country.
More recently, the IRB then limited players to representing only one country for life due, in part but not enitirely, to "Grannygate".

Following rugby's readmission into the Olympics, the ability to change representative nations has had to be re-introduced under IOC guidelines. However this can only be done by competing in a certain number of "Olympic-qualifying" Sevens events prior to being able to formally change nation & play for your new country at XVs. Therefore Flood would have to play 7s for Germany in certain qualifying tournaments before even being considered for Germany XVs.

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