Tigers losing youth talent

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Richardfje
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Tigers losing youth talent

Post by Richardfje » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:13 pm

I was reading an article about the tigers youth squad and there was a mention of a lot of talent in that squad but mots of it has moved on to different clubs by now. Players such as Sam Yawawawa (England U20) has gone to Glasgow Warriors, Paolo Odogwu (England U20) went to Sale last season and looked amazing in last years sevens tournament, Jacob Umaga (England U20) went to Wasps and is apparently on Eddie Jones Radar as a future test player. These layers just name a few of the huge
talents we are letting go before they become real senior starting players. All of those players were or still are in the England U20 set up and I just want to know why we let them go so young?

drc_007
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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by drc_007 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:27 pm

There will always be opportunities elsewhere...

If they read this forum they would assume the supporters are all clamouring for the board to bring in star players from elsewhere and there is no interest in giving game time to a young player who might take a few games to find his feet at first team level at anything other than the Anglo Welsh. If you want to support the young talent then you will have to accept they will make errors, cost points, and look beyond their first season and seek to get the benefit over the many years of their career.

sam16111986
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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by sam16111986 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:55 pm

The rumours surrounding the leavers were;

Umaga - we offered him a development contract with the usual LV and A league pathway into the first team. Wasps offered him a first team deal ergo more money and he took that and hasn't really featured for them. Given our injuries last season he'd have probably played more for us but that's the way it goes sometimes.

Odogwu - rumoured to fallen out with the coaches, was released without a contract offer. Made an initial splash at Sale buy ended the season out of favour.

Yawayawa - went on loan to Notts last season. Didn't make waves has joined Glasgow Warriors development squad and Scotland Sevens.

We certainly need to get the conveyor belt of squad level players back in operation (it's cheaper than signing non-local players and counts towards the EQ bonus) but because of the nature of professional rugby you won't be able to keep them all.

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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by strawclearer » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:08 pm

Talent's important - of course it is - but we rarely see what else accompanies it 'behind the scenes'. I'll stand to be corrected but I think it was Michael Jordan who said "Talent wins games; but teamwork wins championships."
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johnthegriff
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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by johnthegriff » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:18 pm

We cannot keep players here if they want to move or decide that opportunities for progression are better elsewhere. There are very few young player that leave us and become established Premiership players although several improve when given the opportunity of regular first team selection at lesser club than Tigers.
I was surprised when Paolo Odogwu was released, I understand that was our decision not his, however although in the Sale team early last season he was soon released from Sharks to play with Sale in third tier rugby. Jacob Umaga chose to go, his way forward was blocked by two young fly halfs Burns and Williams and Hardwick was being rated by our coaches as the better prospect frankly from what I saw of him when with us I will be surprised if he makes the grade. Sam Yawawawa did look good when he played on the wing for us and Nottingham, but was he good enough? Only time will tell.
The fact is there comes a time when a decision has to be made about a young player and some will depart to make room for the even younger to progress, factors in that decision are obviously ability and potential, and possibly attitude which only the coaches are in a position to judge, inevitably there will be mistakes but I cant think of any really obvious errors we have made.

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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by JP14 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:49 pm

There need to be a balance between academy players and star senior players, therefore then maybe less academy/development players will leave. Tigers must use more academy players in the Anglo-Welsh Cup this year and not put as much senior emphasis in the competition. If we are doing well in the Premiership and Europe then there's no need for senior players to play in the AW Cup unless returning from injury.
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ellis9
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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by ellis9 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:32 pm

To be honest, I can't think of any youth players that have left and gone on to do that well. None of them would have been good enough to get into the Tigers squad.

The ones that are good enough have been kept.

Harry Thacker
Will Evans
George Worth
George Catchpole

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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by sam16111986 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:45 pm

ellis9 wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:32 pm
To be honest, I can't think of any youth players that have left and gone on to do that well. None of them would have been good enough to get into the Tigers squad.

The ones that are good enough have been kept.

Harry Thacker
Will Evans
George Worth
George Catchpole
Lewington would be the only one currently.

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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by ellis9 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:41 pm

sam16111986 wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:45 pm
[quote=ellis9 post_id=671110 time=<a href="tel:1500748357">1500748357</a> user_id=931]
To be honest, I can't think of any youth players that have left and gone on to do that well. None of them would have been good enough to get into the Tigers squad.

The ones that are good enough have been kept.

Harry Thacker
Will Evans
George Worth
George Catchpole
Lewington would be the only one currently.
[/quote]

No. I stand by what I said. None of the youngsters that have left would have got into the Tigers squad. I include Lewington in that.

sam16111986
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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by sam16111986 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:31 pm

ellis9 wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:41 pm
sam16111986 wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:45 pm
[quote=ellis9 post_id=671110 time=<a href="tel:1500748357">1500748357</a> user_id=931]
To be honest, I can't think of any youth players that have left and gone on to do that well. None of them would have been good enough to get into the Tigers squad.

The ones that are good enough have been kept.

Harry Thacker
Will Evans
George Worth
George Catchpole
Lewington would be the only one currently.
No. I stand by what I said. None of the youngsters that have left would have got into the Tigers squad. I include Lewington in that.
[/quote]

Given our shortage of fullback options last season due to injury and shortage at wing going into this season a Saxons level player who can play both would be very handy. He scored tries for fun at Notts didn't get a chance and had a hand when a very young Tigers team turned over a more experienced Bath outfit at the Rec in the LV only to be dropped for the final, Cockers even gave an interview saying it was harsh to drop him. Hindsight is in 20/20 we just need to make sure next time we have a young talent like that we maximise it. He'd have been far most effective for the club than Camacho.

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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by TTRITH » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:10 am

sam16111986 wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:31 pm
ellis9 wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:41 pm
sam16111986 wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:45 pm
[quote=ellis9 post_id=671110 time=<a href="tel:1500748357">1500748357</a> user_id=931]
To be honest, I can't think of any youth players that have left and gone on to do that well. None of them would have been good enough to get into the Tigers squad.

The ones that are good enough have been kept.

Harry Thacker
Will Evans
George Worth
George Catchpole
Lewington would be the only one currently.
No. I stand by what I said. None of the youngsters that have left would have got into the Tigers squad. I include Lewington in that.
Given our shortage of fullback options last season due to injury and shortage at wing going into this season a Saxons level player who can play both would be very handy. He scored tries for fun at Notts didn't get a chance and had a hand when a very young Tigers team turned over a more experienced Bath outfit at the Rec in the LV only to be dropped for the final, Cockers even gave an interview saying it was harsh to drop him. Hindsight is in 20/20 we just need to make sure next time we have a young talent like that we maximise it. He'd have been far most effective for the club than Camacho.
[/quote]

Agree with this. Lewington would struggle to oust Thompstone but especially considering the apparent shortage he'd be pushing all the way.

The only reason Lewington hasn't gone to another Top 6 club is due to injury. He gets a decent run this season and he'll get a move
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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by mol2 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:11 am

If the youngsters aren't progressing into the first team perhaps we should be asking questions about how the academy select their players?

Are we selecting the wrong players as few seem to succeed at other clubs. If they are the right players why aren't they progressing? Too little game time and the chance to progress is lost?

If a player has a potential first team career of 10 years and an age group team perhaps covers 2 years the chances of more that 1 in 5 making the first team is unlikely. Even less if if the club imports star players too.

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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by RagingBull » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:31 pm

Yawayawa didn't play for England U20.

Would be amazed if Umaga is on Eddie Jones radar yet watching him play in the Eng U20's.

drc_007
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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by drc_007 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:34 pm

Really big step up from academy to first team squad, it would be interesting to see the stats for all the clubs on the number of players who make the grade. I suspect it might be lower than people think.

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Re: Tigers losing youth talent

Post by jgriffin » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:35 pm

The selection of players for academies has long been an issue on this forum. Go back a decade and many of us with experience of junior rugby deplored the old school tie/favoured coaches/lack of opportunities for raw talent etc. We all had stories of great players passed over for the favoured few, and last season several posts further echoed this. It is in the nature of English rugby and its hierarchy that mediocre prospects don't get sifted out until professional academy level, but rewarded at earlier levels. It is something I discuss with my eldest son, who along with several talented team-mates, were dropped at intercounty level once the independent school managers arrived in favour of their pet players. Despite the neglect, two made it to Championship level; my son went to university and was part of Shoguns' squad in that disaster at the start of professionalism. One can never tell about talent: look at the players who started rugby later like Thorn and Easter, going on to long and distinguished careers.
I believe that good answers have been given about all the individuals named. I also dislike the negativity, failing to count the successes Tigers have made, academy to Lions for an example.
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