TMO Manipulation

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Tigerbeat, Rizzo, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

kpj tiger
Super User
Super User
Posts: 5281
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:57 pm
Location: Stoney Stanton

TMO Manipulation

Post by kpj tiger »

Seems to be something creeping into the game, just now in the lions game Poite had made his mind up on a tip tackle and the TMO keeps chiming back in trying to force a different decision, Poite see's the exact same angles and then changes his mind and strengthens the sanction, the TMO had also done this earlier on a Hurricanes try where he said you couldn't see the grounding and tried to have it ruled out.

There really need's to be clarity on the TMO's role and who is actually in charge :smt017
Iain
Super User
Super User
Posts: 8161
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 6:39 pm
Location: Market Harborough

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by Iain »

This isn't new. You'll recall that this is what led to Hartley being sent off against us that time at the Gardens.

For me, when the TMO is referred the decision it should be the TMO's call. He has a clearer view than the referee has. If the referee says what he has seen and the TMO agrees with him, then no problem. If the TMO disagrees then that is the right way round. I would be more annoyed if the referee overrules the TMO.

The TMO is not a video editor. They have a more important job than that.
kpj tiger
Super User
Super User
Posts: 5281
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:57 pm
Location: Stoney Stanton

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by kpj tiger »

Iain wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:29 am This isn't new. You'll recall that this is what led to Hartley being sent off against us that time at the Gardens.

For me, when the TMO is referred the decision it should be the TMO's call. He has a clearer view than the referee has. If the referee says what he has seen and the TMO agrees with him, then no problem. If the TMO disagrees then that is the right way round. I would be more annoyed if the referee overrules the TMO.

The TMO is not a video editor. They have a more important job than that.
I agree with what your saying, the issue is the lack of clarity on who is in charge and when, there was a case of one over-ruling the other both ways in this game alone
sapajo
Super User
Super User
Posts: 6054
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:48 pm

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by sapajo »

Mr Ayoub is the witch finder general. :smt009
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity
johnthegriff
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:37 am

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by johnthegriff »

Personally I think the Referee is in sole charge, the TMO is an adviser like the touch judges. I do not think that the TMO should intervene in a refereeing decision or the awarding of a try unless requested by the referee. Obviously when foul play is seen by any of the assisting officials but not the ref then they have to bring that to the ref's attention and judgement.
strawclearer
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4109
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:13 am

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by strawclearer »

johnthegriff wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:51 pm Personally I think the Referee is in sole charge, the TMO is an adviser like the touch judges. I do not think that the TMO should intervene in a refereeing decision or the awarding of a try unless requested by the referee. Obviously when foul play is seen by any of the assisting officials but not the ref then they have to bring that to the ref's attention and judgement.
Firstly...I agree.

Secondly...I wish there was a 'like' facility so that I could simply indicate my support on JtG's original post rather than laboriously having to quote and comment and then preview and submit in order to record my agreement which, of course, other members of the forum have to flog through in order to.......you get the point!
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
Wear a Mask>Protect The NHS>Save Lives
northerntiger
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 853
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:03 am

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by northerntiger »

I agree as well. When the ref has made his decision, that should be it, no 'are you sure, or look again'. The firmest ref seems to be Wayne Barnes, I've heard him put TMOs down in the past.
Chobbsy
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3083
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:51 am
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by Chobbsy »

Yes he pushed and pushed for that yellow card today, I didn't hear him push in the slightest for the neck roll though
God created rugby so footballers have heros too
strawclearer
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4109
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:13 am

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by strawclearer »

He also missed or totally ignored the 'no arms' tackle on Halfpenny as Seymour scored his try - I think Barrett(15) was the culprit.
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
Wear a Mask>Protect The NHS>Save Lives
Tiglon
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by Tiglon »

The referee has to be in sole charge and make the decision.

I do think it's right for the TMO to pipe up if he thinks the referee hasn't seen something, but not if the referee has seen it but the TMO thinks he made the wrong decision.

TMO is not there to second guess or overrule the referee's decisions, he is there to ensure that the referee has all the information available, and to help him by bringing to his attention things that he might have missed.
Hot_Charlie
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4041
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:30 pm
Location: Lincoln

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by Hot_Charlie »

Tiglon wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:57 pm The referee has to be in sole charge and make the decision.

I do think it's right for the TMO to pipe up if he thinks the referee hasn't seen something, but not if the referee has seen it but the TMO thinks he made the wrong decision.

TMO is not there to second guess or overrule the referee's decisions, he is there to ensure that the referee has all the information available, and to help him by bringing to his attention things that he might have missed.
Well, that rather depends. We all now look at it from the viewpoint of all the big grounds having large screens etc that the Ref can look at. Of course when TMOs were introduced, this was not the case. That said, a TMO is duty bound, IMHO, to steer the referee in the correct direction if he is about to make a poor call; after all the TMO has undoubtedly the best view and control over what he can see, rather than looking at a relatively poor quality screen from an angle with a baying crowd.
Iain
Super User
Super User
Posts: 8161
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 6:39 pm
Location: Market Harborough

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by Iain »

We didn't always have a big screen.

The Ricoh has one but it's as good as, if not a little better, than asking someone in the crowd to draw an artist's impression of the incident.

For these reasons, TMO referrals should rest with the TMO.

Also, I don't think what the TMO sees should be shown on the big screens anyway. Too contentious with the crowd.
northerntiger
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 853
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:03 am

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by northerntiger »

Hot_Charlie wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:16 pm
Tiglon wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:57 pm The referee has to be in sole charge and make the decision.

I do think it's right for the TMO to pipe up if he thinks the referee hasn't seen something, but not if the referee has seen it but the TMO thinks he made the wrong decision.

TMO is not there to second guess or overrule the referee's decisions, he is there to ensure that the referee has all the information available, and to help him by bringing to his attention things that he might have missed.
Well, that rather depends. We all now look at it from the viewpoint of all the big grounds having large screens etc that the Ref can look at. Of course when TMOs were introduced, this was not the case. That said, a TMO is duty bound, IMHO, to steer the referee in the correct direction if he is about to make a poor call; after all the TMO has undoubtedly the best view and control over what he can see, rather than looking at a relatively poor quality screen from an angle with a baying crowd.
I agree, if its a case of fact (knock on, foot in touch etc), but not if its a case of interpretation (yellow or not). As had been said before, the ref should be the sole arbitrator and TMO should respect that.
Hot_Charlie
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4041
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:30 pm
Location: Lincoln

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by Hot_Charlie »

northerntiger wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:19 am
Hot_Charlie wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:16 pm
Tiglon wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:57 pm The referee has to be in sole charge and make the decision.

I do think it's right for the TMO to pipe up if he thinks the referee hasn't seen something, but not if the referee has seen it but the TMO thinks he made the wrong decision.

TMO is not there to second guess or overrule the referee's decisions, he is there to ensure that the referee has all the information available, and to help him by bringing to his attention things that he might have missed.
Well, that rather depends. We all now look at it from the viewpoint of all the big grounds having large screens etc that the Ref can look at. Of course when TMOs were introduced, this was not the case. That said, a TMO is duty bound, IMHO, to steer the referee in the correct direction if he is about to make a poor call; after all the TMO has undoubtedly the best view and control over what he can see, rather than looking at a relatively poor quality screen from an angle with a baying crowd.
I agree, if its a case of fact (knock on, foot in touch etc), but not if its a case of interpretation (yellow or not). As had been said before, the ref should be the sole arbitrator and TMO should respect that.
Yep, but when the poor resolution view the ref has compared to the "full HD" the TMO has, sometimes one still has a better view than the other.
Phil B
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2093
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:49 am
Location: St Julien Les Rosiers, Le Gard.

Re: TMO Manipulation

Post by Phil B »

I certainly did not like the way the Referee appeared to be steered away from a decision the TMO did not like. Here is the protocol,

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/96575?lang=en

It seems to say that it is the Ref who is in charge, contrary to what one of the Commentators said.
I could agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.
Post Reply