TMO Manipulation
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TMO Manipulation
Seems to be something creeping into the game, just now in the lions game Poite had made his mind up on a tip tackle and the TMO keeps chiming back in trying to force a different decision, Poite see's the exact same angles and then changes his mind and strengthens the sanction, the TMO had also done this earlier on a Hurricanes try where he said you couldn't see the grounding and tried to have it ruled out.
There really need's to be clarity on the TMO's role and who is actually in charge
There really need's to be clarity on the TMO's role and who is actually in charge
Re: TMO Manipulation
This isn't new. You'll recall that this is what led to Hartley being sent off against us that time at the Gardens.
For me, when the TMO is referred the decision it should be the TMO's call. He has a clearer view than the referee has. If the referee says what he has seen and the TMO agrees with him, then no problem. If the TMO disagrees then that is the right way round. I would be more annoyed if the referee overrules the TMO.
The TMO is not a video editor. They have a more important job than that.
For me, when the TMO is referred the decision it should be the TMO's call. He has a clearer view than the referee has. If the referee says what he has seen and the TMO agrees with him, then no problem. If the TMO disagrees then that is the right way round. I would be more annoyed if the referee overrules the TMO.
The TMO is not a video editor. They have a more important job than that.
Re: TMO Manipulation
I agree with what your saying, the issue is the lack of clarity on who is in charge and when, there was a case of one over-ruling the other both ways in this game aloneIain wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:29 am This isn't new. You'll recall that this is what led to Hartley being sent off against us that time at the Gardens.
For me, when the TMO is referred the decision it should be the TMO's call. He has a clearer view than the referee has. If the referee says what he has seen and the TMO agrees with him, then no problem. If the TMO disagrees then that is the right way round. I would be more annoyed if the referee overrules the TMO.
The TMO is not a video editor. They have a more important job than that.
Re: TMO Manipulation
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Re: TMO Manipulation
Personally I think the Referee is in sole charge, the TMO is an adviser like the touch judges. I do not think that the TMO should intervene in a refereeing decision or the awarding of a try unless requested by the referee. Obviously when foul play is seen by any of the assisting officials but not the ref then they have to bring that to the ref's attention and judgement.
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Re: TMO Manipulation
Firstly...I agree.johnthegriff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:51 pm Personally I think the Referee is in sole charge, the TMO is an adviser like the touch judges. I do not think that the TMO should intervene in a refereeing decision or the awarding of a try unless requested by the referee. Obviously when foul play is seen by any of the assisting officials but not the ref then they have to bring that to the ref's attention and judgement.
Secondly...I wish there was a 'like' facility so that I could simply indicate my support on JtG's original post rather than laboriously having to quote and comment and then preview and submit in order to record my agreement which, of course, other members of the forum have to flog through in order to.......you get the point!
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Re: TMO Manipulation
I agree as well. When the ref has made his decision, that should be it, no 'are you sure, or look again'. The firmest ref seems to be Wayne Barnes, I've heard him put TMOs down in the past.
Re: TMO Manipulation
Yes he pushed and pushed for that yellow card today, I didn't hear him push in the slightest for the neck roll though
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Re: TMO Manipulation
He also missed or totally ignored the 'no arms' tackle on Halfpenny as Seymour scored his try - I think Barrett(15) was the culprit.
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Re: TMO Manipulation
The referee has to be in sole charge and make the decision.
I do think it's right for the TMO to pipe up if he thinks the referee hasn't seen something, but not if the referee has seen it but the TMO thinks he made the wrong decision.
TMO is not there to second guess or overrule the referee's decisions, he is there to ensure that the referee has all the information available, and to help him by bringing to his attention things that he might have missed.
I do think it's right for the TMO to pipe up if he thinks the referee hasn't seen something, but not if the referee has seen it but the TMO thinks he made the wrong decision.
TMO is not there to second guess or overrule the referee's decisions, he is there to ensure that the referee has all the information available, and to help him by bringing to his attention things that he might have missed.
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Re: TMO Manipulation
Well, that rather depends. We all now look at it from the viewpoint of all the big grounds having large screens etc that the Ref can look at. Of course when TMOs were introduced, this was not the case. That said, a TMO is duty bound, IMHO, to steer the referee in the correct direction if he is about to make a poor call; after all the TMO has undoubtedly the best view and control over what he can see, rather than looking at a relatively poor quality screen from an angle with a baying crowd.Tiglon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:57 pm The referee has to be in sole charge and make the decision.
I do think it's right for the TMO to pipe up if he thinks the referee hasn't seen something, but not if the referee has seen it but the TMO thinks he made the wrong decision.
TMO is not there to second guess or overrule the referee's decisions, he is there to ensure that the referee has all the information available, and to help him by bringing to his attention things that he might have missed.
Re: TMO Manipulation
We didn't always have a big screen.
The Ricoh has one but it's as good as, if not a little better, than asking someone in the crowd to draw an artist's impression of the incident.
For these reasons, TMO referrals should rest with the TMO.
Also, I don't think what the TMO sees should be shown on the big screens anyway. Too contentious with the crowd.
The Ricoh has one but it's as good as, if not a little better, than asking someone in the crowd to draw an artist's impression of the incident.
For these reasons, TMO referrals should rest with the TMO.
Also, I don't think what the TMO sees should be shown on the big screens anyway. Too contentious with the crowd.
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Re: TMO Manipulation
I agree, if its a case of fact (knock on, foot in touch etc), but not if its a case of interpretation (yellow or not). As had been said before, the ref should be the sole arbitrator and TMO should respect that.Hot_Charlie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:16 pmWell, that rather depends. We all now look at it from the viewpoint of all the big grounds having large screens etc that the Ref can look at. Of course when TMOs were introduced, this was not the case. That said, a TMO is duty bound, IMHO, to steer the referee in the correct direction if he is about to make a poor call; after all the TMO has undoubtedly the best view and control over what he can see, rather than looking at a relatively poor quality screen from an angle with a baying crowd.Tiglon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:57 pm The referee has to be in sole charge and make the decision.
I do think it's right for the TMO to pipe up if he thinks the referee hasn't seen something, but not if the referee has seen it but the TMO thinks he made the wrong decision.
TMO is not there to second guess or overrule the referee's decisions, he is there to ensure that the referee has all the information available, and to help him by bringing to his attention things that he might have missed.
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Re: TMO Manipulation
Yep, but when the poor resolution view the ref has compared to the "full HD" the TMO has, sometimes one still has a better view than the other.northerntiger wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:19 amI agree, if its a case of fact (knock on, foot in touch etc), but not if its a case of interpretation (yellow or not). As had been said before, the ref should be the sole arbitrator and TMO should respect that.Hot_Charlie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:16 pmWell, that rather depends. We all now look at it from the viewpoint of all the big grounds having large screens etc that the Ref can look at. Of course when TMOs were introduced, this was not the case. That said, a TMO is duty bound, IMHO, to steer the referee in the correct direction if he is about to make a poor call; after all the TMO has undoubtedly the best view and control over what he can see, rather than looking at a relatively poor quality screen from an angle with a baying crowd.Tiglon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:57 pm The referee has to be in sole charge and make the decision.
I do think it's right for the TMO to pipe up if he thinks the referee hasn't seen something, but not if the referee has seen it but the TMO thinks he made the wrong decision.
TMO is not there to second guess or overrule the referee's decisions, he is there to ensure that the referee has all the information available, and to help him by bringing to his attention things that he might have missed.
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Re: TMO Manipulation
I certainly did not like the way the Referee appeared to be steered away from a decision the TMO did not like. Here is the protocol,
http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/96575?lang=en
It seems to say that it is the Ref who is in charge, contrary to what one of the Commentators said.
http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/96575?lang=en
It seems to say that it is the Ref who is in charge, contrary to what one of the Commentators said.
I could agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.