Lions Squad

[h's dad]

Welshy's argument for a preponderance of Welsh players in the squad seems to revolve around their performance in their last very close (?) tour of NZ and that any criticism is English arrogance in preferring their own players.

I'm a little confused.

Which Home Nations teams have beaten NZ this decade? (Ireland and England, but fair enough if Welshy doesn't want to count the England win because NZ said they were feeling poorly)
When was the last time Wales beat NZ? (1953?)
How does the last Welsh tour compare with the last English tour? (both whitewashes with Wales suffering an aggregate defeat of 121-49 whereas England were a bit less embarrassing at 84-55)

As for the English arrogance, I think most of us are more concerned about the lack of Scots who have been demonstrating themselves to be currently considerably more capable than the lacklustre Welsh. Surely only a rabid Welshman would consider that arrogance?

[welshy08]

Nope, my argument is pretty simple really.

It resolves around the fact that how Wales played that tour is exactly how Gatland will want the Lions to play (but for fifteen minutes more).
Wales monstered the rucks, created quick ball and put New Zealand back on their heels for two games.
Did they ultimately win?
No.
Did they show how to beat them and show (a year in advance) what the lions will do?
Yes.
Yes they did.

[welshy08]

Roly - surely the point of contributing to a forum is to be part of a group of people sharing information on or about a mutual interest.

There is nobody on here who agrees with you or who is appreciative of anything you say. You just try (successfully) to provoke reactions with your overly negative view of the world - and you only get criticised when you do post anything.
You cannot feel welcome here - you are not wanted here - so why oh why do you come on here?
Are you that narcissistic to think that you are needed here?

Online,you will have people who you disagree with you Bunchy. You are not part of a clique, this isn't a private members club, this is a place where anyone in the world can post their (in my case brilliant, insightful and illuminating) opinions. You may not like what they sayand unless this place goes invite only you shouldn't expect to.

Frankly some people absoluely hate the lions and hate what they stand for, what they represent and hate the fact that their players will be sub par for the next 18 months because of it. It is a legitimate opinion. No one here should have loyalty to anyone and anything but "their" truth, and as long as they post in good faith they should have at it, with our blessings.

[h's dad]

Nope, my argument is pretty simple really.

It resolves around the fact that how Wales played that tour is exactly how Gatland will want the Lions to play (but for fifteen minutes more).
Wales monstered the rucks, created quick ball and put New Zealand back on their heels for two games.
Did they ultimately win?
No.
Did they show how to beat them and show (a year in advance) what the lions will do?
Yes.
Yes they did.

Ah, thank you. The detail is clearer now. So the plan revolves around showing the opposition what you're going to do a year in advance. Well, I'm pretty sure that's a tried and tested system with no flaws that's never failed.

[Bunchy]

Roly - surely the point of contributing to a forum is to be part of a group of people sharing information on or about a mutual interest.

There is nobody on here who agrees with you or who is appreciative of anything you say. You just try (successfully) to provoke reactions with your overly negative view of the world - and you only get criticised when you do post anything.
You cannot feel welcome here - you are not wanted here - so why oh why do you come on here?
Are you that narcissistic to think that you are needed here?

Online,you will have people who you disagree with you Bunchy. You are not part of a clique, this isn't a private members club, this is a place where anyone in the world can post their (in my case brilliant, insightful and illuminating) opinions. You may not like what they sayand unless this place goes invite only you shouldn't expect to.

Frankly some people absoluely hate the lions and hate what they stand for, what they represent and hate the fact that their players will be sub par for the next 18 months because of it. It is a legitimate opinion. No one here should have loyalty to anyone and anything but "their" truth, and as long as they post in good faith they should have at it, with our blessings.

That response is about as simplistic as some of your earlier rants..

I don't have a problem with different views - I imagine the world to be a bad place if everyone agreed with me......

My point is, I don't understand why anybody would want to contribute nothing but negative views on every single subject they write about...
Surely nobody can really be that negative, therefore as they can find no common ground with anybody else on here, they are here to wind everyone else up....
If they really are that negative about everything, then seek some help...

[kend]

Nope, my argument is pretty simple really.

It resolves around the fact that how Wales played that tour is exactly how Gatland will want the Lions to play (but for fifteen minutes more).
Wales monstered the rucks, created quick ball and put New Zealand back on their heels for two games.
Did they ultimately win?
No.
Did they show how to beat them and show (a year in advance) what the lions will do?
Yes.
Yes they did.

If that argument holds then you might as well just pick the Welsh team and have done with it. The Lions is as much an ideal as it is a team, so probity and merit in selection really matters. As such, picking quite so many Welsh players in the context of a poor 6N is bound to cause some controversy (Biggar, really?). I have no particular axe to grind in national terms (nationality is a contingent fact elevated to a virtue).

I assume you have bet the farm on a series win? The ABs won't have been standing still since the Welsh toured, one look at the squad tells you what is coming. Tours like this have a habit of trashing reputations - not an absolute forgone conclusion but I'd give it a 0.7 probability of Gatland's reputation being pretty dented by the end.

[biffer]

Tours like this have a habit of trashing reputations - not an absolute forgone conclusion but I'd give it a 0.7 probability of Gatland's reputation being pretty dented by the end.

i think you could be spot on here. Woodward's reputation was permanently damaged by the mess he made in 2005, Gatland could be similar. Not sure I can see him holding a squad together if there's a few early losses.

[Roly]

There is nobody on here who agrees with you or who is appreciative of anything you say.

Are you that narcissistic to think that you are needed here?

Wrong (and there's plenty of proof of it).

Therefore, are you that narcissistic to think that you are needed here?

See what I did there?

[Scott11]

Yeah,let's go for Warrenball with its 90+% failure against SH teams,great idea!

[Cagey Tiger]

I'm happy to be stubborn on this. I love Lions tours. Anyone who has been to one will happily tell you there are few sporting experiences that come close. Irish and British of all nations coming together, drinking and singing arm in arm... it's a wonderful atmosphere.

The tour is the last throwback to the amateur ethos of the sport culminating in a test series. Touring is an important tradition in the game, it would be a shame for it to be eroded. I get that there's a need for it to be modernised in some way as it's one hell of a heavy schedule, but I'd hate for it to die. It's a wonderful tradition and still seen as a huge honour by players.

+1 and the same sentiment to Paulinbroughton.

Roly I have never come across anyone quite so negative about seemingly everything as you. If ever there was a prime example of a person always seeing their cup half empty rather than half full, it is you.

That's funny, I feel the same about poor gullible unfortunates...

Roly, 10/10 for the vigour with which you are putting into preaching your pathological hatred of the Lions. I agree with some points, disagree with others, but c'est la vie.

[Spicer]

Does Warburton's captaincy mean he is gareenteed to start? Because he wouldn't be part of the best rowers around currently.
6: CJ Stander
7: O'Brien
8: Vunipola

[Jay C]

Does Warburton's captaincy mean he is gareenteed to start?

Not guaranteed, but as AWJ and Best are (imho) not good enough to make the test 23, then Warburton has to be captain, as I cannot see who else is holding their hands up to lead the side....?

[Scott11]

Too lineout light spicer plus I'd pick Tipuric to do a Betsen job on Barrett! The NZ run lots of plays of set piece and with Beaudans pace I'd want Tips on the openside and I'd leave him in the defensive line on lineouts too. I would go Warburton/Tips/Billy V,breakdown,two lineout jumpers,pace and link play covered,bit light on carrying with only Billy but you could negate that in the tight five. I'd put SOB on the bench with his ability to cover 6/7/8,I like your backrow though,it's beastly!

[tigercaspian]

Nope, my argument is pretty simple really.

It resolves around the fact that how Wales played that tour is exactly how Gatland will want the Lions to play (but for fifteen minutes more).
Wales monstered the rucks, created quick ball and put New Zealand back on their heels for two games.
Did they ultimately win?
No.
Did they show how to beat them and show (a year in advance) what the lions will do?
Yes.
Yes they did.

Welshy, it's your Capt. Mainwaring moment........."Don't tell him, Pike!"

[mol2]

Yeah,let's go for Warrenball with its 90+% failure against SH teams,great idea!

I guess Warrenball might work if he had better players. However he's picked many of the tried, tested and failed Wales team I fear we won't get to find out.

It could be a cunning plan to play his Welshmen in the midweek team and use the rest for the test team!