England vs Italy

[CitizenSmiff]

Ben Te'o should have been the perfect player for yesterday's nonsense. Not going to defend your tackle area? Here, have a 16st strike runner lining up your sweeper like he's an under-stuffed practise dummy. My main concern, which can't be blamed on Italy, was that none of our midfield axis figured out how easy it would be to draw an obstruction (WR 10.1 d)from the Italians wandering around on the wrong side of the offside line.

[fentiger]

Hardly O'Shea's fault if England players didn't have the nous to suss out what was happening within a couple of minutes! If we'd picked and gone through the hole that was left then Italy would have had to contest the breakdown!

Dimmon & Haskell reminded me of the great Bill McLaren:
"It's oop here for thinking and doon there for dancing"

[Yorkshire man]

I was not impressed with Italy's tactics yesterday, nor was I with England's response in the first half. The entire team seemed to be unable to come up with a plan between them to defeat the Italian game plan. They were flustered and not concentrating hence the try from the rebound off the post.

I have a greater worry though, that being that this negative attitude spreads through the game. Imagine some ref on a park pitch somewhere on Saturday afternoon, working alone with two passers by as flag waggers, trying to manage a game like this. He hasn't got a chance and in all likelihood fisticuffs will be the result.

Do we need the rule makers to define what is the offside line to stop this tactic. Probably, yes.

[Scott1]

Spot on Yorkshire man,if this became the norm id probably stop watching and start watching netball!

[DickyP]

Pity the IRB completely re-wrote the Laws in a 'snazzier' format! In my old paper copy from the 1970s it is states that Rugby Union is an 'onside' game and it's clear that the Italian tactics are illegal. Just because the offside line is not the base of the ruck, if no ruck forms, that doesn't mean there is no offside line. When the specific exceptions such as 5 metres for scrums, rear foot for rucks, 10 metres for line-outs etc are excluded, the offside line remains where it always was - in line with the ball. If you are beyond the ball in an offside position you may not interfere with play. If it's just a tackle and not a ruck the defending side may compete for the ball and/or tackle the attacker who picks it up: they cannot, however, stand in the backfield obstructing potential pass recipients.

[Jacko27]

Two points I'd like make about England's first half nightmare yesterday. 1) Yes England were disconcerted by Italy not contesting the breakdown and exploiting an "offside" anomaly in the laws but the key point, I think, is HOW LONG it took the forwards to work out the obvious counter tactic ie forget about trying to pass to the backs and use route one or as it's usually referred to nowadays "pick and go". They didn't start doing this until the second half after, presumably, they got the rough of Eddy's tongue. What I didn't see in the first half was the captain calling the forwards together to talk about doing something different ( in the way that Alan Wyn or Paul O'C or Martin J would have done)ie there was a lack of effective leadership on the field. I respect Eddy Jones' opinions and you can't argue with the playing record but this shows, in my opinion, Dylan H's weakness as a captain. It's hard to believe that he is the talismanic leader as is claimed when you listen to his excruciatingly dull and formulaic media utterances after the match.
2) Apart from the onfield leadership failure, the other point I'd like to make was that England were inexplicably (and inexcusably) poor in other basic basic rugby ways: conceding boneheaded penalties, poor lineout and scrummaging technique and Farrell's terrible place and tactical kicking. Perhaps he had been reading all the adulatory articles written about him during the previous week. Actually that's been harsh, Owen is a fine, fine player and I'm sure he will learn from one bad day.

To end on a less whinging more positive note, I think Joe Launchbury thoroughly deserved his M.o.M. and Jack Nowell had a terrific match when he came on - I'd always pick him in front of faster/allegedly more talented wingers like May & Watson.

[jgriffin]

Agree with Jacko, especially about Nowell who has a far quicker rugby brain than almost all contenders for a Lions berth. Alas, Gatland will look no further than North and Williams initially.
Daly for me didn't put a foot wrong and covered for some blunders. IMO fullback is his position.

[Soggypitch]

Agree with Jacko, especially about Nowell who has a far quicker rugby brain than almost all contenders for a Lions berth. Alas, Gatland will look no further than North and Williams initially.
Daly for me didn't put a foot wrong and covered for some blunders. IMO fullback is his position.

I agree that Nowell and Daly are fine players who would be in my team every time.

However I'm not certain FB is Daly's best position, he doesn't seem completely assured under the high ball yet, I actually think Nowell is potentially a better FB. I still prefer Daly at 13.

[h's dad]

It smacks of uncontested scrummaging debacle, that ain't rugby and I hope Italy regret doing it, if that's all they can come up with, bring on relegation. Laws change needs doing immediately if not sooner.

You don't think England should take any responsibility for failing to come up with the most obvious of solutions for what should be at best a one off spoiling gimmick?

[Soggypitch]

It smacks of uncontested scrummaging debacle, that ain't rugby and I hope Italy regret doing it, if that's all they can come up with, bring on relegation. Laws change needs doing immediately if not sooner.

You don't think England should take any responsibility for failing to come up with the most obvious of solutions for what should be at best a one off spoiling gimmick?

I would love to be a fly on the wall when England watch the video together. What Eddie said in public, I suspect will be very different in private!

[h's dad]

Eddie is Eddie,I love him! Just daid what the vast majority of us were all feeling. I think it's lit a fire under us now for the Scotland game!

I've been a fan of his success up until this 6N but he's shown himself up as a typical whinging Aussie. The fire should have been lit after the Welsh game but you need some sense to feel the heat.

[h's dad]

I was not impressed with Italy's tactics yesterday, nor was I with England's response in the first half. The entire team seemed to be unable to come up with a plan between them to defeat the Italian game plan. They were flustered and not concentrating hence the try from the rebound off the post.

I have a greater worry though, that being that this negative attitude spreads through the game. Imagine some ref on a park pitch somewhere on Saturday afternoon, working alone with two passers by as flag waggers, trying to manage a game like this. He hasn't got a chance and in all likelihood fisticuffs will be the result.

Do we need the rule makers to define what is the offside line to stop this tactic. Probably, yes.

Whether it's over training or sheer dimwittedness in the England camp, I can't see the tactic being so successful for so long on any park pitch anywhere in the land.

[h's dad]

I just worry that next season we will playing with 14 as someone will have to protect Ford who can't tackle and will be a liability. Just hope I am wrong!

But against the Welsh he tackled really well. Mike Brown got done like a kipper too

Quite.

He's defending well for England for some time. It would be strange indeed to discount the majority of games and judge on a single missed tackle instead.


Unless, of course, judgment has already been made and this is simply finding evidence retrospectively to support it?

Not a one off. His defensive shortcomings now seem to be highlighted on the 'expert' TV analysis of every game that I've seen involving him, complete with clips and little arrows.

edit; though to be fair, he wasn't any worse than a lot of others yesterday.

[Jacko27]

Yes at risk of it becoming a bit of a love-in, I agree with you about Daly. Uber talented player and should be full back. Mike Brown is still tough and brave but he's lost some pace and doesn't seem to know when to offload.
Also, jgriffin, I've always admired and agreed with your great motto about rugby being a 15 a side game, played outdoors on grass. The only slight qualification being that towards the very end of my playing career (decades ago) and playing vets/4thXV rugby, 15 a side was an aspiration dreamed of by selection committees on Monday evenings but rarely achieved on a Saturday afternoon!

[Maidman]

During his post match interviews yesterday, Conor O'Shea made a number of references to the refereeing during Italy's first game (against Wales). It had clearly angered him. I couldn't recall what the issue was though? Anyone got any ideas?

(I'm old and have a short memory!)