Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to an end?

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ourla
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Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to an end?

Post by ourla » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:24 am

Asks Ian Cockerill

I think a better statement would be that the days of Tigers being the rugby giant in England came to an end some time ago. There have been challengers on a short term basis such as Quins and Saints and there are now challengers on a long term basis, Sarries and Wasps. The game is commercially driven and commercially run. New finance is flooding into the game and is exposing any weaknesses structure and development.

But I don't believe we are done and buried and that the egg is totally rotten. Whilst the board are looking at things more long term, Mauger and the team have to refocus in the coming weeks and get ourselves back in shape mentally and physically to a) secure a place in the ERC and b) push for top 4. We have to prove to ourselves and to others we may wish to come here that we haven't lost the plot.
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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by Scott1 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:33 am

They have come to an end!

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by biffer » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:50 am

I think one of the key problems has been that our model of bringing players in has generally been to bring in someone who fits into one of two categories - someone who we feel is underrated or under the radar and we feel we can get them playing better than expected, or a player who is past their prime and looking for a payday. The latter category is the main failing and has resulted in us repeatedly spending a whack of money and getting nothing for it - see Pietersen, JdV, Kronfeld, Thorn as examples of a lot of cash for not a lot of time on the pitch. Toomua is a departure from that, and it's genuine bad luck that he's been injured. Getting players in their prime who can deliver 20 games a season is a must for the highest paid guys in the squad.

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by Coops » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:00 pm

biffer wrote:I think one of the key problems has been that our model of bringing players in has generally been to bring in someone who fits into one of two categories - someone who we feel is underrated or under the radar and we feel we can get them playing better than expected, or a player who is past their prime and looking for a payday. The latter category is the main failing and has resulted in us repeatedly spending a whack of money and getting nothing for it - see Pietersen, JdV, Kronfeld, Thorn as examples of a lot of cash for not a lot of time on the pitch. Toomua is a departure from that, and it's genuine bad luck that he's been injured. Getting players in their prime who can deliver 20 games a season is a must for the highest paid guys in the squad.

Valid points and some of that is because we are not the force we once were and therefore cannot attract players just on our reputation alone; need to compete financially as well which we can't do.

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by Scott1 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:03 pm

Can't we?! According to our last accounts we are spending up to the cap,so it is just a case we are spending badly rather than not spending?

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by JackFlashJonny » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:06 pm

Sadly they came to an end in 2013....

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by Iain » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:22 pm

In this cycle, maybe.

Nothing's permanent though is it? I've heard this question asked at least three or four times in my time now.

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by jgriffin » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:26 pm

Not really. Firstly the playing field is less level than ever before and we either join the super-debt clubs or stick to financial probity and weather out what IMO will prove to be a short-term storm, at least for Wasps, Bath etc.
Secondly we have made major (sorry)errors in focus and recruitment. Saturday evening more than anything should've reinforced a Cockers/Deano type lesson - you dominate first, win subsequently. You cannot dominate if you don't have the troops and/or the attitude and/or the method. The 'dinosaur' forwards-based approach is definitely not extinct, rugby has always been FatBoys win ball, the team then uses it.
Thirdly, when the Georges, Mefins, Corrys and Lewis's etc went that was the passing of a generation of streetfighters who had known what it was to have a job as well as play, and who could knuckle out a win even when supposedly outclassed. We used to win hopeless causes in the last quarter, even the last 5 mins; not any more. Buying superstars doesn't bring loyalty and 'dog', a fact too many of the commenting fans seem to ignore.
My answer is we were never as dominant as some fantasise, we have slipped for now, but unless the AP becomes a ring-fenced franchise zone, we'll be back. :smt027
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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by Spicer » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:40 pm

On the field, yes. Off the pitch we are and will continue to be the best support club in this country.

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by mightymouse » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:40 pm

Its just time to be honest

1) we have several very expensive players out long term injured for the third successive season
2) We ran a deficit in last year's accounts
3) we have so far chosen not to spend injury dispensation money, one assumes so that we get into no further debt than we already are
4) other clubs do chose to spend that money on injury dispensation
5) at least 2 other clubs have be found guilty of cheating the wage cap and yet the premiership chose to do nothing about it, effectively making the cap non existent.
6) some clubs have the money via rich owners to spend up to and indeed beyond the cap
7) Leicster tigers have chosen in recent years to invest in the infrastructure of the club, building new stands and facilities for supporters, corporate customers and sponsors. I take it from this action that they intend to have a long term business model that could be self sustaining for the next 50 or 100 years.
8) this level of investment has been made at the short term expensive of the playing team.

All of this is undeniable and frankly, hard though it is to accept, I think on balance it is the right approach for the long term future of the club.
However, what I find odd is that nobody from the board of directors has the courage to stand up and say all of this in public. Instead they take a long term loyal servant of the club and hang him out to dry in the most shameful bit of scapegoating I have ever seen.

OK there has been a noisy minority calling for the head of Richard Cockerill for some time now. They however would probably have called for his head if he had won the last 5 league titles. Not sure what exactly their beef was? Probably that they see him as a bald headed little front row oik from Coventry... a jumped up furniture polisher who had only got the job by being in the right place at the right time. They seemed to think he was a ranting big mouth with no tactical brain and whose only motivational tool was yelling obsenities!

Ok we now they have their wish ... a southern hemisphere guru .. one time all black and a back of silky skills .. a mild mannered tactical genius.

Result ... after 2 weeks .. exactly the same .. a stop start gallant effort followed the next week by capitulation!

That's the measure of the current team. That is what can be afforded given the current circumstances. Lets not fool anyone that this was ever going to change by the sacking of the loyal Tiger. Lets stop trying to pretend that anything will change until either players come back from injury or more money is spent .... and if there is no money it cannot be spent!

Let's just at least be honest about it!

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by tigercaspian » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:17 pm

Not necessarily but it's certainly true that other clubs have caught us up in many aspects.
In our dominant years, player recruitment for all clubs was primarily 'local', given that as jg says, players tied down a 'proper job' during the week as well as playing at weekends. Now, recruitment is global and players will come if the money is right. This (a) renders history some what obsolete and (b) means that if we are not prepared to spend like other Clubs we must inevitably go a little backwards in the standings. There is some merit in the argument that some of the money spent in the last few years as not given a return on that investment. I really hope that Kalamafoni and Mermoz will not be added to that list.

Secondly and specifically, Sarries have built for the long term on the back of Nigel Wray's support (and he has been there for two decades now) and have built a Club (not just a playing side ) that we all respect even if we don't actually love them !!They now set a benchmark in the UK pro-game and have the silverware to prove it. You could also fit Exeter in to this category as they improve every season but just don't (yet) have the silverware

Thirdly, I remain to be convinced by Bath and Wasps. Bath's recruitment of Burgess, a serious recruitment and team ethos/culture error, did serious damage to them and to me led to Ford Snrs demise. Perhaps when their benefactor has been there as long as Wray and they have won silverware under him, I will change my judgement. Wasps, well, I have posted on this before so until they have repaid their £30m+ by 2022 and the £12m lent by their owner, I will file the current regime under 'flash in the pan', even if they win a trophy or two between now and 2022.

So don't panic Mr Mainwaring , we are not all doomed I tell ye! I certainly think we are going to have a couple of seasons where a top 6 finish will be the result, not least of all because the current group of players are so maddeningly inconsistent in their performances. If Mauger or whoever follows him can eradicate those inconsistencies, then that will be a considerable plus for us, whoever we recruit.

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by Phil B » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:20 pm

mightymouse wrote:Its just time to be honest
Let's just at least be honest about it!

I agree with most of this, but have a problem with the idea that any Board member could actually come out and say that the emphasis of the Club has been targeted at ground redevelopment, and dos (misspelling) the consequences for the team. (Even if they thought that the team might suffer, short term).

For me, the definition of where the club is, playing wise, will be the performance on Saturday. Glasgow will be all out to win, as a second place qualification is possible. Can we stop them? If we don't, then sadly, I think we have confirmed our current, second rate status. Winning doesn't change too much, of course, except to confirm there is still hope for this team.
I could agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by BFG » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:54 pm

They ran into moving brick wall's on Saturday night, incapable of going through it, and you must make holes through it before you can even start to go around it.
Been saying it for ages, tiny dynamic hookers, what a laugh, all I see is ball going to ground!
Mobile back rowers, little blokes easily cleared out of rucks one on one.
This silly idea that you can simply run the legs off teams is for lower level rugby, at the top level the best teams are big and strong, and also fitter and faster than anything else, and incidentally they can pass and catch a ball which quite frankly has been a failing of some of ours since they arrived, they should never have got where they are on such a low level of basics but they have the right name which is another big issue!

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by Tiger_in_Birmingham » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:12 pm

biffer wrote:I think one of the key problems has been that our model of bringing players in has generally been to bring in someone who fits into one of two categories - someone who we feel is underrated or under the radar and we feel we can get them playing better than expected, or a player who is past their prime and looking for a payday. The latter category is the main failing and has resulted in us repeatedly spending a whack of money and getting nothing for it - see Pietersen, JdV, Kronfeld, Thorn as examples of a lot of cash for not a lot of time on the pitch. Toomua is a departure from that, and it's genuine bad luck that he's been injured. Getting players in their prime who can deliver 20 games a season is a must for the highest paid guys in the squad.
Pietersen at the beginning of the season was worth his weight in gold.

Kronfeld gave everything for the shirt - it was the combination of him and Back that made us the success we were in the early 2000s - everyone else was moving from a traiditon 6 & 7 to two 6.5s whereas Tigers played with two 7s and the opponents were never allowed the ball for very long

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Re: Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to and e

Post by Iain » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:19 pm

And I am simply NOT having that Thorn added little :smt005

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