When? Why?

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RagingBull
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Re: When? Why?

Post by RagingBull »

ellis9 wrote:You quoted being successful and then mentioned good rugby. I'm not bothered whether we play good rugby. I'd be happy with a 3-0 win every week.

You were saying you wanted successful rugby but then said those 4 teams were playing good rugby. Which one do you want?

Why can we only afford good players when we spend up to the cap? If we spent over the cap, then we could attract a backline like Wasps and a squad like Saracens have done.
So you want successful rugby but are happy with getting thrashed?
I mentioned those teams becuase currently those teams are looking likely to get into the quarters Leinster and Munster already in. And we are not.

So you are saying Wasps have spent over the cap have proof? If so why didn't the club be more active in the salary cap incident a bit ago? Why didn't we release a statement saying we are not one of those clubs?
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Re: When? Why?

Post by Tigerbeat »

With regards to the salary cap, Tigers should not have to make a statement. As a Plc the club is auditted and this would be picked up and not worth risking.
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ellis9
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Re: When? Why?

Post by ellis9 »

So you want successful rugby but are happy with getting thrashed?
I mentioned those teams becuase currently those teams are looking likely to get into the quarters Leinster and Munster already in. And we are not.

So you are saying Wasps have spent over the cap have proof? If so why didn't the club be more active in the salary cap incident a bit ago? Why didn't we release a statement saying we are not one of those clubs?
Where have I said I am happy with getting thrashed?
Those teams could also get knocked out in the next round so that's not success either.
I don't have proof no but just look at the players at those clubs!
See Tigerbeats post for your answer to Tigers making a statement regarding the salary cap.
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Re: When? Why?

Post by h's dad »

Tigerbeat wrote:With regards to the salary cap, Tigers should not have to make a statement. As a Plc the club is auditted and this would be picked up and not worth risking.
There is no obligation for the audit to analyse the £11.047 million (2016) of staff costs between salary cap and non-salary cap costs. It could be done as a voluntary disclosure but I have seen nothing to indicate this. Are you definitively aware of anything to the contrary Tigerbeat?
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SirGordonRamsey
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Re: When? Why?

Post by SirGordonRamsey »

ellis9 wrote:When are people going to realise that we are no longer the team we used to be? You need to stop thinking we should be successful just because we used to be successful. No team stays dominant forever.

Why do people want a rich owner to bring the success? Do you really want the club you love to be in massive debts and possibly in years to come, in a financial mess just to see trophies? Do you really love the club or do you really love trophies?

Why am I seeing comments about people considering not going to games because we are playing poorly and not winning as many games as we would like? Being a supporter isn't just about being there for the good and great times, you are a supporter in the bad and very bad times. If you support the club, then support the club! I'm not saying you can't make comments on how things could be done differently etc but to not go to games because we are no longer the dominant team is pathetic.

When will people realise that having so many injuries and injuries to key players will make a difference? This isn't an excuse but it has played a massive part in our struggles this season.

I want to see us win European trophies and Premiership titles but I know that we cannot do this as regularly as we would like. My love and support for the club won't change whether we win 20 more trophies or no more trophies. I realise things are not right at the moment but whatever does or doesn't happen in the near future or further in the future, this is the best club in the world and I love it!
Its the same with England since 2003 before EJ stepped in, they were always expected to win, but that didn't make them a good side, it made them worse, the constant goal of top 4 is not the right mind set anymore. Should be top six aslong as we're improving our game.

My loyalty to Tigers will not change, but you can understand peoples frustration. We are not succesful currently, and it's not because we have bad or injured players, if it were to do with injurys it would be proof that we contantly rely on the likes of Manu and Toomua, and we should just expect to be a bad side when they're away.

And lack of an owner means we cannot afford injury cover.

It's not the amount defeats or wins, its the manner in which we are playing. Tigers are probably one of the most incosistent teams in the prem at the moment. Apart from a few occasions the majority of our wins have been off the boot, we have struggled tremedously getting over the try line unless its through the pack.

Enjoy the loses loyally if you wish, but more is to be expected of those lucky enough to wear the red, white, and green. A team of A class players who can't perform (consistently).
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ellis9
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Re: When? Why?

Post by ellis9 »

Somebody else who has misunderstood. I don't enjoy seeing us lose! As I have said, I'd rather see a poor game of rugby with us winning 3-0 than a spectacular game of rugby where we lose 40-39.
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Re: When? Why?

Post by BengalTiger »

Personally I think tigers and the fab base have been slow to accept the changing fortunes, RC was being criticised a couple of seasons ago for playing risk-free forward orientated boring rugby. He took that on board and recruited AM to bring in a more dynamic, open, exciting type of rugby.
We are reaping the benefits of that muddled thinking and RC has lost his job through it, entertaining rugby in my eyes is winning rugby, 9 points to 6 yes please! as long as we have the 9, this all starts with being difficult to beat, the players on the roster can buy into that but it is an admission that you do not have the resources to outscore your opponents in a free flowing game but that is where we are mostly due to budget restraints and bad luck with injuries the only option is to go back to being difficult to beat, the rest would follow naturally, though I am not sure AM is a coach capable of doing this and that may be behind the coaching tensions reported that led to RC being sacked, Sarrie's are not afraid of being boring far from it they win and move on.
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Re: When? Why?

Post by Smudge »

Quoting Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Conaught as examples of CLUBs is ridiculous.
Firstly, they are provinces NOT Clubs. The Irish cannot compete at club level.
The four provinces are heavily funded by the IRFU and their players also enjoy
very liberal tax treatment. In fact the Provinces are very well funded indeed.

They are certainly on a different "playing field" to Tigers.

Likewise the French clubs have a vastly inflated ability to attract and PAY world
class players. Racing's crowd was pathetic considering who they were playing but
then that is not where their funding comes from.

The two 24 stone brick sheet houses they brought on in the second half was a prime
example of their cheque book recruiting ability., Not to mention Dan Carter..
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Re: When? Why?

Post by drc_007 »

There are several posts that claim the "Leicester Way" is no longer viable as a playing style but I've been watching Tigers for over 50 years and when I look at the current England Grand Slaw winning side it looks very much like it was built on the Tigers blueprint.

A tight five that guarantee good set-piece possession and are a potent strike weapon from 5m scrums and line outs. Also a couple of players who are willing to smash into every breakdown for 80 mins and let others do the fancy stuff.
A back row that will tackle themselves to a standstill and provide constant ball carrying support in heavy traffic. Players who always take the ball running forward not at a standstill, secure in the knowledge that if brought to ground their team-mates will be there to secure possession.
Half backs that control where on the pitch the game is played and make sure everyone else in the team knows what is happening.
Centres who will defend like trojans but can switch instantly to attack when the opportunity, wingers who work there socks off up and down the touch line and when given a sniff of the try line are almost impossible to stop.
A full-back who is ferocious in defence and a siege gun boot.
A goal-kicker with metronomic precision who keeps the score board ticking over.
A collective ferocious will to win and a clear plan that everyone has bought into and understand their own particular role in implementing it.
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Re: When? Why?

Post by chewbacca »

drc_007 wrote:There are several posts that claim the "Leicester Way" is no longer viable as a playing style but I've been watching Tigers for over 50 years and when I look at the current England Grand Slaw winning side it looks very much like it was built on the Tigers blueprint.

A tight five that guarantee good set-piece possession and are a potent strike weapon from 5m scrums and line outs. Also a couple of players who are willing to smash into every breakdown for 80 mins and let others do the fancy stuff.
A back row that will tackle themselves to a standstill and provide constant ball carrying support in heavy traffic. Players who always take the ball running forward not at a standstill, secure in the knowledge that if brought to ground their team-mates will be there to secure possession.
Half backs that control where on the pitch the game is played and make sure everyone else in the team knows what is happening.
Centres who will defend like trojans but can switch instantly to attack when the opportunity, wingers who work there socks off up and down the touch line and when given a sniff of the try line are almost impossible to stop.
A full-back who is ferocious in defence and a siege gun boot.
A goal-kicker with metronomic precision who keeps the score board ticking over.
A collective ferocious will to win and a clear plan that everyone has bought into and understand their own particular role in implementing it.
Yep that pretty much describes everything we are not.
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Re: When? Why?

Post by jgriffin »

BengalTiger wrote:Personally I think tigers and the fab base have been slow to accept the changing fortunes, RC was being criticised a couple of seasons ago for playing risk-free forward orientated boring rugby. He took that on board and recruited AM to bring in a more dynamic, open, exciting type of rugby.
We are reaping the benefits of that muddled thinking and RC has lost his job through it, entertaining rugby in my eyes is winning rugby, 9 points to 6 yes please! as long as we have the 9, this all starts with being difficult to beat, the players on the roster can buy into that but it is an admission that you do not have the resources to outscore your opponents in a free flowing game but that is where we are mostly due to budget restraints and bad luck with injuries the only option is to go back to being difficult to beat, the rest would follow naturally, though I am not sure AM is a coach capable of doing this and that may be behind the coaching tensions reported that led to RC being sacked, Sarrie's are not afraid of being boring far from it they win and move on.
Agree 100% and see AM as a blunder - alas so many wanted us to join the free-scoring lot when we could win 9-0 and bore Europe to death. Now we can do neither. There was nothing wrong with the Tigers way ( cf drc_007's post) just that Tigers have lost it.
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Re: When? Why?

Post by Big Dai »

The Tigers of old had good players. You are a good side if you can supply a full pack bar one position, (and he was damned unlucky not to go.) to a world cup winning side, seven plyers to a lions side? Those days are over and indicates to me how the status of the Tigers has slipped.

True, with Touma at 12, Manu at his best at 13, TV's twinkling toes at 15 and JPP's experience on the wing the backs might have had some go forward, invention, guile.

The forwards? I'm not too concerned at the front 5? A balance of experience and hope for the future. The back row? Where are our carriers? We seem to me to be lightweight, imbalanced, samey?

Plus we have an amalgam of cultures and former styles to deal with and overcome as players are drawn from all over the globe. There's an identity and a togetherness that's drawn from not only playing together as a club, but as internationals and as lions.

There was a bloke who talked about safety. He said bad things occur when factors, each significant but only collectively necessary, combine. To put that in a Tigers context you can have a weak back row, an injured playmaker, an injured carrier, an injured star runner, disagreements in coaching, a constantly changing team, poor leadership etc .......you can possibly get away with one, but not all at once. You need to look at each factor and take steps to eliminate them....in safety speak anyway.

Tigers tried to overcome a perceived coaching issue by sacking Cockerill. Was that Caligula management, stopping the baby from coughing by cutting its head off? Only time will tell, Would a mediator have worked between the two?

I believe the club needs to get back to essential Tigers values. Drawing from its own player resources, developing talent. retaining that important cussedness and stubbornness in the forwards with the balance of old. I don't feel buying a team of talented individuals necessarily works. A collective focus and drive is required.

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Re: When? Why?

Post by reamly »

ellis9 wrote:Somebody else who has misunderstood. I don't enjoy seeing us lose! As I have said, I'd rather see a poor game of rugby with us winning 3-0 than a spectacular game of rugby where we lose 40-39.
I suspect I am also one of those who are misunderstanding you.

It is one thing to say we are not a good team but it's quite another to say we "need to stop thinking we should be successful just because we used to be successful".

Our history and the associated success is and should play a important part in our expectations for the future. In my opinion to say that we should not expect success just because we have been successful in the past is to remove one of the most important driving forces that would enable us to remain successful. It's a motivational factor that you simple can't buy.

If the team were to adopt an attitude of "we have no right to be successful" then I truly would think the end was in sight.
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Re: When? Why?

Post by Tigersunited »

Personally, I think you earn the right to be successful, rather than expect it because of something that happened a long time ago.....
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Re: When? Why?

Post by BFG »

drc_007 wrote:There are several posts that claim the "Leicester Way" is no longer viable as a playing style but I've been watching Tigers for over 50 years and when I look at the current England Grand Slaw winning side it looks very much like it was built on the Tigers blueprint.

A tight five that guarantee good set-piece possession and are a potent strike weapon from 5m scrums and line outs. Also a couple of players who are willing to smash into every breakdown for 80 mins and let others do the fancy stuff.
A back row that will tackle themselves to a standstill and provide constant ball carrying support in heavy traffic. Players who always take the ball running forward not at a standstill, secure in the knowledge that if brought to ground their team-mates will be there to secure possession.
Half backs that control where on the pitch the game is played and make sure everyone else in the team knows what is happening.
Centres who will defend like trojans but can switch instantly to attack when the opportunity, wingers who work there socks off up and down the touch line and when given a sniff of the try line are almost impossible to stop.
A full-back who is ferocious in defence and a siege gun boot.
A goal-kicker with metronomic precision who keeps the score board ticking over.
A collective ferocious will to win and a clear plan that everyone has bought into and understand their own particular role in implementing it.
That's basically a good post!
I look at Leicester and just think square pegs in round holes!
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