ellis9 wrote:No, the DOR picks the team. You will not convince me otherwise.
Are you telling me that Cockerill didn't and Rob Baxter, Steve Diamond, Mark McCall and Jim Mallinder to name a few don't pick the team? Not a chance!
Looking at Maugers 1st go at picking the team for the wasps game..
Either cockerel wasn't wrong and he's been picking the best team or
Mauger has been picking the team every week
Or they were both heavily constrained by injuries......whichever way round you look at it, one idea about the breakdown at the club goes out the window! Personally, I think we will find out more about it in a year or two, but my money is on AM having ambition that needed recognition in public before he inevitably returns to NZ and a move up the coaching hierarchy there. Whether that is what Tigers needs is moot.
My choice would be MJ as boss and front man, but Head Coach picks the team in concert with an expanded and upgraded coaching team etc - and to that end someone like Gustard or similar would be fine with both club and international coaching experience - i.e. ruling out Smurf.
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Let me introduce you to two concept common in most organisations now line management and delegation. Both of which seem completely alien to you.
As DOR Cockerill was Aaron Mauger's line manager therefore Mauger was answerable to Cockerill for delivering the playing style, coaching and yes recommending the team that he wanted to carry that out. That responsibility should have been delegated by Cockerill to Mauger. Who in turn should have been reporting back to Cockerill regarding any failures. That reporting back should have been taking place in private on a Monday morning not in a half time team talk when the DOR completely rides rough shod over the Head Coach. (Which is what appears to be happening).
If then the DOR feels the Head Coach is not up to the task it is up to him to make a case our for their removal to the Board. In a similar way if the Head Coach feels one of the other Coaches is not up to the task, as their line manager he should be making a case out to the DOR for their removal.
Now Ellis9 here are 3 questions for you:
1. Are you a Tigers supporter first and a Cockerill supporter 2nd. Is one man bigger than the Club?
2. Will you and others, in the best interests of the club, for the moment accept the decision taken and give Mauger a chance at least until the end of the season, to do the job he was brought in to do.
3. Or are you going to sit in the corner and sulk, sniping away undermining the man now charged with leading the club, because the decision isn't exactly to your liking? As I recall exactly what you moaned about to others who championed the cause of Deano, Moody, Waldrom, Castro, etc, etc.
1. Yes, I'm a Tigers supporter 1st and no, no one is bigger than the club.
2. I am giving Mauger a chance. Please show me where I have said I won't be.
3. I haven't sulked at all about it so I'm not going to start now and I haven't undermined Mauger so I won't start now either.
Last edited by ellis9 on Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Article in todays Daily Mail encourages the board to camp outside Martin Johnson's house until he agrees to take the helm. That would be good for the club, but does he really want it or even need it?
fleabane wrote:
DORs are strategic. Coaches deal with the day to day issues, under a ""Head Coaxh"" - AM at Leicester.
A "Head Coaxh" is used for aerial kicks and televised replays,
AM at Leicester, FM is commonly the broadcast at Saints, Digital at Twickenham.
Question When is TV back? Probably for the Bristol game!
With regards to the roles of Head Coach and DoR at Tigers, unless someone can provide something definitive from Tigers e.g. Job Descriptions, statement by someone in Tigers management, can we stop the bickering about what they did involve because we don't know and cannot prove anything (at present).
Noddy555 wrote:Article in todays Daily Mail encourages the board to camp outside Martin Johnson's house until he agrees to take the helm. That would be good for the club, but does he really want it or even need it?
Probably wants a bullet in the head more than this
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity
Noddy555 wrote:Article in todays Daily Mail encourages the board to camp outside Martin Johnson's house until he agrees to take the helm. That would be good for the club, but does he really want it or even need it?
Bumped into him before xmas , I asked what he was doing and the reply was " Ducking and diving "
As for other coaches , nothing against boris , but I would have approached either castro as a scrum coach ( he's set up his own rugby camps now so teaching kids ) or is it to early for Marcus to be player/coach
fleabane wrote:
All should have spent time away from the club to learn other ways of working, so sorry, no room for Smurf, or Blaze in key roles.
In all, we need to recruit people with a demonstrable history of success.
Good job these were not the criteria when Deano and Wells were appointed to the top 2 coaching jobs in the club. They wouldn't have been considered and we wouldn't have won 4 in a row and 2 Heineken Cups.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!
dunks43 wrote:
As for other coaches , nothing against boris , but I would have approached either castro as a scrum coach ( he's set up his own rugby camps now so teaching kids ) or is it to early for Marcus to be player/coach
You're well informed of their respective coaching qualifications and styles then? I'm sure if the club thought the other two were better they would have asked; but then why would they want to employ someone who already was an experienced coach!?
Noddy555 wrote:Article in todays Daily Mail encourages the board to camp outside Martin Johnson's house until he agrees to take the helm. That would be good for the club, but does he really want it or even need it?
Bumped into him before xmas , I asked what he was doing and the reply was " Ducking and diving "
As for other coaches , nothing against boris , but I would have approached either castro as a scrum coach ( he's set up his own rugby camps now so teaching kids ) or is it to early for Marcus to be player/coach
Boris was player coach for two years at the Dragons and helped sure up their scrum which is doing pretty badly now he's gone. He's also been coaching at Coventry. He's a good appointment in my opinion given he was liked and respected during his time at the club, so will be listened to by the senior players and has the experience at coaching to push the players in training.
Castro retired only recently so has no experience and Ayerza is currently injured and working on his fitness. Possibly not the time for coaching responsibilities.
Cagey Tiger wrote:With regards to the roles of Head Coach and DoR at Tigers, unless someone can provide something definitive from Tigers e.g. Job Descriptions, statement by someone in Tigers management, can we stop the bickering about what they did involve because we don't know and cannot prove anything (at present).
Maybe this is as close as we'll get? From one of our board of directors....Ben Kay:
Mauger has asked for the board’s backing and he has it, but establishing the right coaching structure for the future is now critical. Mauger, of course, has a chance to stake a claim while the board is conducting a full review of what that structure should look like.
Director of rugby and head coach? Performance director and head coach? What is the difference?
Broadly speaking, a DOR would manage the rugby department, the medical department and oversee recruitment, leaving the head coach to focus on winning each weekend; a clear delineation.
Mark McCall, for example, has a direct hand in Saracens’ tactical planning but then largely leaves the coaching to his coaches. Eddie Jones is similar with England. Sir Clive Woodward was the archetypal director of rugby.
A performance director would do a similar job to the DOR but probably not get involved in recruitment and would sit alongside the head coach in the structure. Which way Leicester go will probably depend on who is available.
It's a good article (that Tigerbeat posted on another thread) IMO. Could also indicate that the board, or Ben Kay at least, see some social media comments and opinions - and are flabbergasted by some of them.
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.
Cagey Tiger wrote:With regards to the roles of Head Coach and DoR at Tigers, unless someone can provide something definitive from Tigers e.g. Job Descriptions, statement by someone in Tigers management, can we stop the bickering about what they did involve because we don't know and cannot prove anything (at present).
Maybe this is as close as we'll get? From one of our board of directors....Ben Kay:
Mauger has asked for the board’s backing and he has it, but establishing the right coaching structure for the future is now critical. Mauger, of course, has a chance to stake a claim while the board is conducting a full review of what that structure should look like.
Director of rugby and head coach? Performance director and head coach? What is the difference?
Broadly speaking, a DOR would manage the rugby department, the medical department and oversee recruitment, leaving the head coach to focus on winning each weekend; a clear delineation.
Mark McCall, for example, has a direct hand in Saracens’ tactical planning but then largely leaves the coaching to his coaches. Eddie Jones is similar with England. Sir Clive Woodward was the archetypal director of rugby.
A performance director would do a similar job to the DOR but probably not get involved in recruitment and would sit alongside the head coach in the structure. Which way Leicester go will probably depend on who is available.
It's a good article (that Tigerbeat posted on another thread) IMO. Could also indicate that the board, or Ben Kay at least, see some social media comments and opinions - and are flabbergasted by some of them.
Thanks for this
However, it doesn't go into how RC & AM worked (or not) together.
Cagey Tiger wrote:With regards to the roles of Head Coach and DoR at Tigers, unless someone can provide something definitive from Tigers e.g. Job Descriptions, statement by someone in Tigers management, can we stop the bickering about what they did involve because we don't know and cannot prove anything (at present).
Maybe this is as close as we'll get? From one of our board of directors....Ben Kay:
Mauger has asked for the board’s backing and he has it, but establishing the right coaching structure for the future is now critical. Mauger, of course, has a chance to stake a claim while the board is conducting a full review of what that structure should look like.
Director of rugby and head coach? Performance director and head coach? What is the difference?
Broadly speaking, a DOR would manage the rugby department, the medical department and oversee recruitment, leaving the head coach to focus on winning each weekend; a clear delineation.
Mark McCall, for example, has a direct hand in Saracens’ tactical planning but then largely leaves the coaching to his coaches. Eddie Jones is similar with England. Sir Clive Woodward was the archetypal director of rugby.
A performance director would do a similar job to the DOR but probably not get involved in recruitment and would sit alongside the head coach in the structure. Which way Leicester go will probably depend on who is available.
It's a good article (that Tigerbeat posted on another thread) IMO. Could also indicate that the board, or Ben Kay at least, see some social media comments and opinions - and are flabbergasted by some of them.
Thanks for this
However, it doesn't go into how RC & AM worked (or not) together.
You're welcome Cagey, only used it, and your post, to highlight the bit about delineation between roles
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.
The bit I don't like from that article is where it says the role is dependent on who is available!
So we may have a DOR, a head coach or a performance director working alongside a head coach. A performance director is pointless as a DOR or head coach would be able to decide whether a performance is good enough or not.
Mainly what I don't like is that they have said it depends on who is available! Why was this research not done before sacking Cockerill?! They could have done this coaching setup review whilst having an experienced DOR in place and then once the review was done, find out who was available and then decide whether to sack Cockerill or not.
