DOR aspirants, then?

[Iain]

I want Mauger to get the job full time - if he does then it means we've finished the season well.

If not him, I'm being seduced by the idea of Johnno taking it.

I sort of agree with you Iain but don't you mean that if we finish the season well, AM should get the full time job?

I would be happy to give Johnno a chance. A club level train set may suit him better (what's he been doing in between leaving the England set-up and now?) - but there's a lot to be said for bringing in someone who can be dispassionate about the club.

Same thing really - I think he's got the season to prove he's up to it. If he gets the job, it will only be as a result of finishing the season well. In which case he absolutely should get it.

Bringing in a new broom with dispassion to the club: I get that too. However, something occurred to me earlier.

We've had seven coaches in the professional era since Tony Russ left.

Three were men who either had coached their country or would go on to do so.
Four were former Tigers players.

The international three won one cup and reached one final (Dwyer, 1997)

The former Tigers players won nine titles, two Heineken Cups, reached two more finals and won two cups.

I know this is a bit simplistic but let's not completely sell ourselves to the notion of needing an outsider.

[ellis9]

There is an obvious difference between the Tigers set up and those others.
Tigers have separate Head Coach and Director of Rugby roles, those other clubs don't.

That's irrelevant. The DOR picks the team at Tigers or any other club for that matter. That's just the way it is. Even if there is a head coach, the DOR picks the team.

[mol2]

Some suggest we don't need an outsider.

A reasonable suggestion on the surface, but of the insiders who has any real high level coaching experience? There are one or two former Tigers players who have that experience working elsewhere - Gustard, Deano, Rountree, Cullen and West to name a few. However I doubt few of these would be in a position to give up their current jobs even if they wanted to.

Would anyone expect Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso to replace Ron Dennis at Mclaren F1?

Of course not but they might think of bringing in an ex-driver with appropriate F1 team management experience like Nikki Lauder.

[fleabane]

That is true Iain but: Meyer didn't complete a season because he left to tend to his sick wife, Llofreda made the self-admitted mistake of not bringing in his own team and therefore being undermined.

Tigers need someone with proven coaching expertise and success at at least Premiership level. The idea of bringing in Johno because he is a playing legend doesn't fit our current requirement.

Do we need a DoR at all? Was the role not created in order to allow AM to come in as Head Coach?The chief exec and the team manager can split the admin duties, or get in a new administrator.

A Head Coach (AM), scrum (forwards), defence and attack coaches should do it. All need to be experienced. This does not rule out former Tigers - Stanko may be a permanent answer, or Wigg, for example. All should have spent time away from the club to learn other ways of working, so sorry, no room for Smurf, or Blaze in key roles.

The HC should also have overall responsibility for the Academy, with a new Academy manager reporting to him. (The Academy needs a shake up, or closing, depending on the future recruitment policy).

In all, we need to recruit people with a demonstrable history of success.

[snoopster]

There is an obvious difference between the Tigers set up and those others.
Tigers have separate Head Coach and Director of Rugby roles, those other clubs don't.

That's irrelevant. The DOR picks the team at Tigers or any other club for that matter. That's just the way it is. Even if there is a head coach, the DOR picks the team.

You made an irrelevant point, yes.
But moving on to the roles - DoR is an executive role, he oversees the whole playing side of the club from picking coaches to managing the scouting of youth team players. Basically the rugby strategy of the club as a whole.
Head coach is responsible for the 1st team - coaching, picking the side, motivating the players etc.

This is why international teams have Head Coaches, not Directors of Rugby.

[snoopster]

Do we need a DoR at all? Was the role not created in order to allow AM to come in as Head Coach?The chief exec and the team manager can split the admin duties, or get in a new administrator.

I think it was created when Meyer went, as a way to keep Cockerill and O'Connor and I'm not sure the club every really got to grips with the roles which is what caused the conflict now.

I agree on the rest pretty much. Not sure coaches have to have been elsewhere though - if Blaze, for example, is doing an outstanding job and no one better is available, or would better suit the playing style AM wants, then why shouldn't Tigers keep the best man for the job?

[ellis9]

Incorrect. The DOR picks the team alongside all those things you mentioned. Why would you take on a DOR role and then not be able to pick the team?! If the head coach picks the team then surely Mauger should have been sacked as his role according to you, was to pick the team.

Look at all the DOR's in the league. There's no way they would not pick the team.

[trendylfj]

One of our very laudable problems comes out of so many of our coaching staff being Tigers players who have just retired and as someone said earlier about a comment Loffreda said that he had made a mistake by not bringing in his own team.
AM is going to have to be certain that the staff he has inherited are the ones who are on the same plane to go forward.

[snoopster]

Incorrect. The DOR picks the team alongside all those things you mentioned. Why would you take on a DOR role and then not be able to pick the team?! If the head coach picks the team then surely Mauger should have been sacked as his role according to you, was to pick the team.

Look at all the DOR's in the league. There's no way they would not pick the team.

Except the board took the view the problem was Cockerill trying to pick the team, not Mauger. Is this a clue, perhaps, to how they view the roles?

You tried that, listing a number of DoR's who don't have Head Coaches and was thus irrelevant. Time for a new argument in place of a vaguer version of a disproven one?

[Smudge]

I don't much like the Guardian but this is a decent article and well informed,

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... crossroads

[Crumblies]

Incorrect. The DOR picks the team alongside all those things you mentioned. Why would you take on a DOR role and then not be able to pick the team?! If the head coach picks the team then surely Mauger should have been sacked as his role according to you, was to pick the team.

Look at all the DOR's in the league. There's no way they would not pick the team.

Let me introduce you to two concept common in most organisations now line management and delegation. Both of which seem completely alien to you.

As DOR Cockerill was Aaron Mauger's line manager therefore Mauger was answerable to Cockerill for delivering the playing style, coaching and yes recommending the team that he wanted to carry that out. That responsibility should have been delegated by Cockerill to Mauger. Who in turn should have been reporting back to Cockerill regarding any failures. That reporting back should have been taking place in private on a Monday morning not in a half time team talk when the DOR completely rides rough shod over the Head Coach. (Which is what appears to be happening).

If then the DOR feels the Head Coach is not up to the task it is up to him to make a case our for their removal to the Board. In a similar way if the Head Coach feels one of the other Coaches is not up to the task, as their line manager he should be making a case out to the DOR for their removal.

Now Ellis9 here are 3 questions for you:

1. Are you a Tigers supporter first and a Cockerill supporter 2nd. Is one man bigger than the Club?

2. Will you and others, in the best interests of the club, for the moment accept the decision taken and give Mauger a chance at least until the end of the season, to do the job he was brought in to do.

3. Or are you going to sit in the corner and sulk, sniping away undermining the man now charged with leading the club, because the decision isn't exactly to your liking? As I recall exactly what you moaned about to others who championed the cause of Deano, Moody, Waldrom, Castro, etc, etc.

[ellis9]

Bath- Blackadder DOR, Matson Head Coach
Quins- Kingston DOR, Mapletoft Head Coach
Newcastle- Richards DOR, Wells Head Coach
Gloucester- Humphreys DOR, Fisher Head Coach
Worcester and Bristol have had a change of DOR's so both have head coaches at present but could change.

[fleabane]

Smudge, I've copi d across the Guardian link to the Tigers Business Model thread. It's a very useful article, and rather more broad than just about the DoR. Hope that's ok.

[Smudge]

No problem FB. Kind of you to ask.

[dunks43]

No, the DOR picks the team. You will not convince me otherwise.

Are you telling me that Cockerill didn't and Rob Baxter, Steve Diamond, Mark McCall and Jim Mallinder to name a few don't pick the team? Not a chance!

Looking at Maugers 1st go at picking the team for the wasps game..

Either cockerel wasn't wrong and he's been picking the best team or

Mauger has been picking the team every week