Premiership DORs, Cockers and critics

[jgriffin]

So many on here have called - erroneously IMO - for Cockers to go, despite Mauger being the Head coach. Some of those have quoted Baxter as better.....well Chiefs are having a grim season too, it's not just us and Stains. All 3 lost this weekend, at least we were away at the most impregnable fortress in Euro rugby, not at home!
Seems to me that critics should look at the substance - Chiefs have struggled for injuries, but also have had genuine coaching problems and divisions between coaches and senior players (not 'lost the dressing room' which is an incorrect prat's phrase). Chiefs don't have a moneybags either, their Mr Rowe borrows the money, although they do well being an outpost of Londonshire with a lot of very well-off having weekend places or commuting from there. Baxter is under quite a bit of pressure, though his local support is huge.
Not quite the same problems we seem to have but enough shared ones to reflect that all is not as dire as painted on here.

[doublecarpet]

For me, it's not the defeat, but the manner of it, and the fact it is happening at least twice a season, if not more now for the last 3-4 seasons with no tangible lessons learnt or anything changing to address it. Or what has changed, has evidently not altered the course.
The worst part of saturday was that it actually wasn't that much of a surprise and also it was evident after the first quarter that the game was over even if the scoreboard didn't state that at the time.
Yes, we will probably turn it around to some extent at the weekend, but likely lose the double header 6-4, so will be further behind whilst being expected to 'happy clap' our way through from the usual blinkered posters...Ellis9 etc.

[Southerntiger]

There are quite a lot of half truths going on here Jgriffin.

I have called Cockers out for last 24 months and it has been for two key reasons: selection and recruitment.

I am not going to rehash all the recruitment errors of last 3 years but let’s look at last few:

Number 8 – Glaring hole that has killed us
Flankers – O’Connor is a good player but he isn’t doing a Schalk Burger/George Smith and earning his big bucks. Croft should have been let go and not had his last contract renewed.
Second rows – Needed to hire a classy player, don’t have one international quality second row
Hooker – McGuigan was not the right hooker to get. Sarries get Tolofua, Wasps get Tommy Taylor, Bath get Jack Walker and we get George McGuigan……
Centres – Let’s not even go into the detail, De Villiers disaster, Matt Smith and Catchpole not trusted so they are just wasted cash.

Selection has been diabolical. Front row selection has been haphazard and inconsistent, who is our second hooker?! Is Bateman a tighthead or hooker? Is Mulipola a 1 or a 3? Fitzgerald seems to be guaranteed a start in the big games not sure why. And despite Kitchener not pushing on, he is our best lineout forward by a mile so why is he on the bench a lot?

Will Evans not got the chances he has deserved. McCafferey is the only guy who can play 8. Kitto and Harrison are constanly chopped and changed, no wonder they struggle to find form. Why is Owen Williams at 12? He should either be on the bench or not in 23, he isn’t Owen Farrell. Betham is moved about constantly, the bloke is a winger. God knows how he feels.

And Tuilagi, this is a prime of example of people looking at history and always thinking it will repeat itself. The bloke has been unlucky with injury but he has had his best days in all probability. Barely played in 3 years and whoever decided him to pay 450k a year needs their head testing. Maybe worth a punt on 200k a year but 450k for him is mental.

JP Pietersen – good player but why spend a fortune on a winger when 4-8 is in desperate need of some big bucks spent there.

The De Villiers signing has to go down as the worst in Premiership rugby history. The bloke was injured constantly from 2012 to 2015, yet we still sign him.

[h's dad]

There are quite a lot of half truths going on here Jgriffin.

I have called Cockers out for last 24 months and it has been for two key reasons: selection and recruitment.

I am not going to rehash all the recruitment errors of last 3 years but let’s look at last few:

Number 8 – Glaring hole that has killed us
Flankers – O’Connor is a good player but he isn’t doing a Schalk Burger/George Smith and earning his big bucks. Croft should have been let go and not had his last contract renewed.
Second rows – Needed to hire a classy player, don’t have one international quality second row
Hooker – McGuigan was not the right hooker to get. Sarries get Tolofua, Wasps get Tommy Taylor, Bath get Jack Walker and we get George McGuigan……
Centres – Let’s not even go into the detail, De Villiers disaster, Matt Smith and Catchpole not trusted so they are just wasted cash.

Selection has been diabolical. Front row selection has been haphazard and inconsistent, who is our second hooker?! Is Bateman a tighthead or hooker? Is Mulipola a 1 or a 3? Fitzgerald seems to be guaranteed a start in the big games not sure why. And despite Kitchener not pushing on, he is our best lineout forward by a mile so why is he on the bench a lot?

Will Evans not got the chances he has deserved. McCafferey is the only guy who can play 8. Kitto and Harrison are constanly chopped and changed, no wonder they struggle to find form. Why is Owen Williams at 12? He should either be on the bench or not in 23, he isn’t Owen Farrell. Betham is moved about constantly, the bloke is a winger. God knows how he feels.

And Tuilagi, this is a prime of example of people looking at history and always thinking it will repeat itself. The bloke has been unlucky with injury but he has had his best days in all probability. Barely played in 3 years and whoever decided him to pay 450k a year needs their head testing. Maybe worth a punt on 200k a year but 450k for him is mental.

JP Pietersen – good player but why spend a fortune on a winger when 4-8 is in desperate need of some big bucks spent there.

The De Villiers signing has to go down as the worst in Premiership rugby history. The bloke was injured constantly from 2012 to 2015, yet we still sign him.

I am very impressed by how Southerntiger knows exactly how much so many players are on and how their packages are split between basic and play/performance and how they impact the salary cap. Unless he's talking complete tripe.

[Southerntiger]

Tuilagi earning 450k has been confirmed in press many times and Cockers said he is the top earner. This adds up with most internationals around 300-350k.

JPP is likely be on at least 300k, I would imagine 350k.

Everyone knows the going rate of players, if you are mates with a couple of Prem players you know what is the going rate for each position and international quality etc.

I don't know the precise salary of the Senior Finance Manager at Coca Cola. But I do know an 8 years post qualified accountant earns about 100-120k so I won't be far off!

[Grumpy of Crumbie]

I'm not sure how Exeter or Saints struggling should make me feel better. I'm only interested in one team.

I want to measure ourselves against the best as we used to, we are now falling into the 'also rans' category and I find that very, very painful.

I've been patient but I see no signs of things improving, in fact I think we're going backwards. I've no idea what needs to change, I'm not qualified or paid to make that judgement. My gut feel is also recruitment particularly in the forwards where we have been consistently bullied for a couple of seasons. We have Munster, Wasps, Sarries coming up how many of our pack would get a game for any of them? It would be a close call for Exeter, Glasgow and Racing as well.

I think we may be looking at our worst season for many years with Champions Cup qualification for next season being the measure of success.

So I don't care if things change or they don't but what has to improve drastically is the performance on the pitch. So come on Tigers please, please, prove me wrong. Up the performance and win 4 out of the next 6 and I'll be so happy to admit how wrong I've been to ever doubt that we are going in the right direction.

[Soggypitch]

The problem is none on here really know what the cause of the problems are, Cockers, Mauger, the other coaches, quality of players or a combination.

If I were Peter Tom I would be having off the record conversations with; Cole, Ayerza, Slater, Youngs x 2, Harrison, Smith, Murphy ie. those players that have Tigers in their heart, and try to find out what the problem really is.

Then deal with it as necessary. Too simple? Pragmatic, practical management IMO.

[ourla]

I'm not sure how Exeter or Saints struggling should make me feel better. I'm only interested in one team.

The point would be "context". If you take Saracens out of the equation, Tigers have been the only team consistently challenging for the Premiership in recent years. Teams like Bath, Saints, Chiefs, Quins, have reached the final and a couple of times won it. But thereafter form has dropped and they are unable to compete consistently year on year. So when people talk about Tigers deteriorating over the last three of four years it's a relatively very soft deterioration and less dramatic than many. You are interest in only one team may be blinkering your view of the wider picture.

I want to measure ourselves against the best as we used to, we are now falling into the 'also rans' category and I find that very, very painful.

'Also rans' suggests we aren't in the running. Clearly last season we were in the running for both major competitions. It's still too early to say this season. Should we fail to make the play offs for both competitions this season you would have a very compelling argument.

[Iain]

I'm not sure how Exeter or Saints struggling should make me feel better. I'm only interested in one team.

The point would be "context". If you take Saracens out of the equation, Tigers have been the only team consistently challenging for the Premiership in recent years. Teams like Bath, Saints, Chiefs, Quins, have reached the final and a couple of times won it. But thereafter form has dropped and they are unable to compete consistently year on year. So when people talk about Tigers deteriorating over the last three of four years it's a relatively very soft deterioration and less dramatic than many. You are interest in only one team may be blinkering your view of the wider picture.

I want to measure ourselves against the best as we used to, we are now falling into the 'also rans' category and I find that very, very painful.

'Also rans' suggests we aren't in the running. Clearly last season we were in the running for both major competitions. It's still too early to say this season. Should we fail to make the play offs for both competitions this season you would have a very compelling argument.

You really do talk a lot of sense Ourla - Glad to see it isn't just me avoiding sensationalism.

[Tigerbeat]

I dont buy that we have gone drastically backwards. Tigers set the standards previously and other teams have improved and taken the game to another level. Now it is up to Tigers to follow and take the lead from teams such as Saracens and Wasps
Given the salary cap, injuries and international call ups, every team has a squad which they have to manage with. The number of injuries in key positions has hurt the team and the teams selected have not been consitently availble to gel. This is meaning that players are having to play out of position.

[jgriffin]

I'm not sure how Exeter or Saints struggling should make me feel better. I'm only interested in one team.

The point would be "context". If you take Saracens out of the equation, Tigers have been the only team consistently challenging for the Premiership in recent years. Teams like Bath, Saints, Chiefs, Quins, have reached the final and a couple of times won it. But thereafter form has dropped and they are unable to compete consistently year on year. So when people talk about Tigers deteriorating over the last three of four years it's a relatively very soft deterioration and less dramatic than many. You are interest in only one team may be blinkering your view of the wider picture.

I want to measure ourselves against the best as we used to, we are now falling into the 'also rans' category and I find that very, very painful.

'Also rans' suggests we aren't in the running. Clearly last season we were in the running for both major competitions. It's still too early to say this season. Should we fail to make the play offs for both competitions this season you would have a very compelling argument.

Thanks, ourla and Iain for noting that I was - clearly somewhat ineptly - trying to contextualise matters. As you will know from other posts I am critical of Tigers coaching but when you look sensibly at the AP the points you are making are spot on. I know from my mate who works at Chiefs those are precisely the same questionmarks raised here (and for Saints). As Tigerbeat points out, we may have wobbled but surprisingly still seem to stay up there whereas some (e.g. Saints) are having worse problems. We cannot divorce Tigers from the arenas they play in (that means the leagues, not just the grounds, in case anyone mistook the phrase).

[Tigerbeat]

Quins, Saints, Worcester, Bristol, Exeter and Northampton have experienced life in the Championship.
Tigers have been top four for a long time and other clubs don't appear to have the ability to consistently finish in the play off places.
The league has got more competitive with the likes of Bath, Saracens, Quins, Tigers, Sale, Exeter and Wasps challenging for the top six.........with four from seven reaching the play offs!!

[h's dad]

Tuilagi earning 450k has been confirmed in press many times and Cockers said he is the top earner. This adds up with most internationals around 300-350k.

JPP is likely be on at least 300k, I would imagine 350k.

Everyone knows the going rate of players, if you are mates with a couple of Prem players you know what is the going rate for each position and international quality etc.

I don't know the precise salary of the Senior Finance Manager at Coca Cola. But I do know an 8 years post qualified accountant earns about 100-120k so I won't be far off!

So you've read it in the paper? and that is gospel? Don't you realise how much they get wrong and even if it is right it is only within certain parameters to try and maximise the headline? The admittedly very few AP senior squad players where I happen to know current or recent packages are on much less than I would have otherwise expected.

[Grumpy of Crumbie]

Thanks for all the replies, a few weeks ago I could have written any of them myself. I was always optimistic and trying to find the positives. In fact examining my own views and questioning whether I'm expecting too much and being over critical.

But having watched recent performances, not just last Saturday my view has changed. Its not 'sensationalist' its my opinion which I'm entitled to. Of course its a personal view and I really do hope I'm wrong but for me we are simply not good enough and I don't see where the improvement is going to come from. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to have the same view simply telling it as I see it.

I sincerely hope you are all correct and I genuinely look forward to you all sneering at me at the end of the season because that will mean we've been successful.

[fillfinger]

The problems identified by posters I feel are generally correct but the biggest factor for me is the lack of quality upfront which has given us an underpowered pack. The fanciest backs in the world cannot do anything without the ball or importantly quick ball. Good defence rules and with no gain line success or quick clear out playing off the back foot you have to be lucky to compete. Whose fault? For me the big difference in money is starting to count and unless we have a great academy pipeline I think we will struggle at the highest end to match the "big teams".
Still the weekends not the same without Tigers to cheer so count me in and ever hopeful for a reaction to the last match. Dont mind if we lose as long as we compete.