Is it now time to thank Cockers?

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h's dad
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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by h's dad » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:57 am

tigercaspian wrote:
smith183 wrote:To expect such a monumental level of success over such a sustained period with a significantly smaller budget than all of our competitors (Sarries, Wasps and Bath) is a tall order that no coach other than Mallinder, who has guided saints to a very respectable 9th this season, has even come close to.

If we were to sack RC there is a distinct possibility that we could never reach the pinnacle of rugby again.
I can't tell you how Bath and Sarries sort their finances but I'm not sure that I would include Wasps in this Gang of Three nor as a financial benchmark for Tigers to follow. As a risk, Wasps are out on their own.
Wasps last set of accounts showed a loss before tax of £9.3m and loan repayments due in 2022 of £33m which, no matter how successful they are on the pitch, will be significant factors for them to deal with in the short-medium term. Owner Richardson also has an outstanding loan of just over £9m which is I think repayable at a years notice.
If Bath and Sarries owners keep putting in they will be fine . Wasps I am not so sure about and as another poster pointed out after the loss last weekend, they haven't actually put any silverware in the trophy cabinet recently either.
The pinnacle of rugby can therefore only be achieved with sound and sustainable financing off the field supporting successful team-building on it, and that includes team spirit & buying into the ethos f the club. We have the former but a chunk of the latter clearly went AWOL at the weekend .
I don't think Smith is extolling these teams as a financial model and his point isn'nt about their financial profit or loss. It is about their spend which is a major factor in their declared losses and, germaine to Smith's point, a major factor in their current success (as in second in the table for Wasps, even without silverware). Not that I'm sure there is that much between the spend of the top four but just trying to clarify what I think Smith is saying.
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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by Bristol Tiger » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:14 pm

Made it to the Guardian Breakdown now https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... -breakdown. Nothing new being said but clearly building up steam in the media. Interesting that the Guardian picks out the funding models of leading clubs in the same story - though no conclusions!

On the main question of "Is it time to thank Cockers?" - I would normally argue against changing any coaches during a season, especially given we are sitting fourth in the league (so not in threat of relegation, but concede there is a threat to a top 4 position and even a place in Europe proper next season). However, if the rumours (on this forum & in the media) that there the coaching team are not that i.e. not working as a team, then change is needed and quickly. A dysfunctional management team is bad for the team and will only make the situation worse.

As to whether Cockers or Mauger should go, that requires insight into the functioning of that management team that I don't have. Hopefully there are plenty in the club that do have that view. Which ever lead (or supporting) coaches are "most" to blame needs to be removed.

Should also point out that Cockers recruited Mauger - if the "Mauger experiment" has failed, Cockers must also take some of the blame.

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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by Cardiff Tig » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:30 pm

Not knowing anything about the supposed tension between the coaches and how true the rumours are:

If a new HC (AM) is brought in to make us play more expansive rugby and the teams ends up with the pack being demolished - is that because the game plan has been dominated to much by the idea of playing expansive rugby? Or is it that the forward orientated DoR that has let standards of forwards slip on his watch?

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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by Red Boots » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:41 pm

There are many possible reasons for our perceived lack of success. One thing that has been mentioned is a lack of money. So I suggest we raise the cost of our match tickets to at least the average of the other clubs. Then our "massive" fan base would be worth something.

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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by WhitecapTiger » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:44 pm

Red Boots wrote:So I suggest we raise the cost of our match tickets to at least the average of the other clubs. Then our "massive" fan base would be worth something.
And....probably chuntering more than usual.....
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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by Bristol Tiger » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:45 pm

Cardiff Tig wrote:If a new HC (AM) is brought in to make us play more expansive rugby and the teams ends up with the pack being demolished - is that because the game plan has been dominated to much by the idea of playing expansive rugby? Or is it that the forward orientated DoR that has let standards of forwards slip on his watch?
Good question - my observation would be that the All Blacks play an expansive game, but do not lack quality, abrasive forwards. Australia also try to play an expansive game, but clearly are weaker on the forwards front (though not necessarily the backs) versus the All Blacks. I would hazard a guess at which model AM was looking towards.

Also maybe worth noting that Cockerill has mentioned several times in interviews that his focus is the forwards (so I would assume the lead Forwards Coach - Richard Blaze being specifically named Assistant Forwards Coach). So who is ultimately responsible for the standard of our forward play?

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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by sapajo » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:16 pm

Bristol Tiger wrote:
Cardiff Tig wrote:If a new HC (AM) is brought in to make us play more expansive rugby and the teams ends up with the pack being demolished - is that because the game plan has been dominated to much by the idea of playing expansive rugby? Or is it that the forward orientated DoR that has let standards of forwards slip on his watch?
Good question - my observation would be that the All Blacks play an expansive game, but do not lack quality, abrasive forwards. Australia also try to play an expansive game, but clearly are weaker on the forwards front (though not necessarily the backs) versus the All Blacks. I would hazard a guess at which model AM was looking towards.

Also maybe worth noting that Cockerill has mentioned several times in interviews that his focus is the forwards (so I would assume the lead Forwards Coach - Richard Blaze being specifically named Assistant Forwards Coach). So who is ultimately responsible for the standard of our forward play?
Each forward is ultimately responsible for their own individual standard of play.
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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by doublecarpet » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:37 pm

Our playing budget will be far in excess of the likes of Munster, Ulster and Glasgow, so that excuse where's thin when we take the beatings we have over the last three years.

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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by sapajo » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:31 pm

doublecarpet wrote:Our playing budget will be far in excess of the likes of Munster, Ulster and Glasgow, so that excuse where's thin when we take the beatings we have over the last three years.
As far as I know there is no salary cap in Ireland or Scotland? Furthermore some Munster players have centralised contracts with the IRFU ie Zebo, Murray, O'Mahony and Donnacha Ryan.
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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by Bristol Tiger » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:06 pm

sapajo wrote: Each forward is ultimately responsible for their own individual standard of play.
Absolutely true - but the board won't sack half a team of players for sub-standard performances - no matter's who's responsibility. Not sure who "owns" the recruitment decision, AM or RC, or even the board, but I'm sure the board will look at the management first.

And the England experience seems to suggest that good management is key to getting the most out of players. Same squad (virtually), very different results in the space of 12 months.

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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by Bristol Tiger » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:08 pm

sapajo wrote:
doublecarpet wrote:Our playing budget will be far in excess of the likes of Munster, Ulster and Glasgow, so that excuse where's thin when we take the beatings we have over the last three years.
As far as I know there is no salary cap in Ireland or Scotland? Furthermore some Munster players have centralised contracts with the IRFU ie Zebo, Murray, O'Mahony and Donnacha Ryan.
Sorry - don't have time to find the references but I know the Irish provinces were complaining that they were no longer competitive against the English teams given the English budgets (i.e. after we had raised our caps). This was about 1-2 years ago.

I think the central contracts were improved (value wise) to help combat that. However, fairly sure you are right, there is no cap in Ireland or Scotland - just a lack of funds (though would expect Ireland's approach would be on a par with English teams spend, though not necessarily in excess of our spend).

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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by L Smith » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:58 pm

Red Boots wrote:There are many possible reasons for our perceived lack of success. One thing that has been mentioned is a lack of money. So I suggest we raise the cost of our match tickets to at least the average of the other clubs. Then our "massive" fan base would be worth something.
I would accept an increase if it led to silverware. I would also expect a rebate if it did not!
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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by ellis9 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:17 pm

So they increase match ticket prices and spend the extra money on what? We spend up to the salary cap already so how would you spend that extra money?

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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by ourla » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:16 am

ellis9 wrote:So they increase match ticket prices and spend the extra money on what? We spend up to the salary cap already so how would you spend that extra money?
Training facilities, coaches, extra curricular activities for the players, best fitness and condition facilities and staff. Stuff that gets that extra 5/10%.
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Re: Is it now time to thank Cockers?

Post by G.K » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:50 am

Shouldn't the cost be related to the quality of the Product and therefore be going down?
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

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