Is it now time to thank Cockers?

[Soggypitch]

It's all opinions but personally I would have complete confidence in MJ being able to sort out our scrum/line out. Also to teach us how to maul again and defend a driving maul. Also to win those crucial collisions and to have the correct mind set to play away.

Rugby has not changed that much over the last few years, the fundamentals of forward play and having the right mind set have not altered to any great degree.

Yes he would need good coaches around him, but do you really think he's been sitting in his slippers these last few years, taking no notice of what's been happening in the rugby world? He's intelligent and remains a student of the game, he has every attribute we need at Tigers to get us back on the front foot, the rest will take care of itself (with the right team in place).

[sapajo]

Tigers need yet another inexperienced coach like a hole in the head.
Richards Blaze and Cockerill have negligible coaching experience outside of Tigers.

Add Murphy and of course the sacked Paul Burke. Its a classic example of the incestuos breeding from within mentality. We do need to ensure the preservation and continuity of the Tigers ethos and DNA, but that does not require 3 current ex Tigers.

[BFG]

Tigers need yet another inexperienced coach like a hole in the head.
Richards Blaze and Cockerill have negligible coaching experience outside of Tigers.

Add Murphy and of course the sacked Paul Burke. Its a classic example of the incestuos breeding from within mentality. We do need to ensure the preservation and continuity of the Tigers ethos and DNA, but that does not require 3 current ex Tigers.

Interesting thought and one that I have wondered is responsible for an obvious drop in standard all round, it's become so insular and is stagnated.
Leicester used to make players better, now they seem to make them worse.
I watched the recent A League game against Saints, it was a low level match, virtually no cutting edge and such a dulled down level of physicality that if these players were to mix with the senior squads regularly on a daily basis I have no doubt that the level of training preparation is not of the required standard.
So many questions remain regarding inconsistency, do they really maul so poorly in training? How can a top level side containing so many proven high level breakdown players continue to look so ordinary at the breakdown? If they are training with many of the lot I saw in that A League game then I have no doubt that in training the senior squad will look absolutely brilliant in every facet of the game.
I'm not surprised that they often get blown away in the early stages of away matches against top sides, they would be totally unprepared!
Sorry if that upsets a few but it's the truth!

[TigerintheCatStand]

Things need to be looked at in context and the current context is that Bath, Wasps and Saracens have allegedly spent more than the rules allow, on weak unsustainable business models and no matter how well we play or recruit or train we are unlikely to win silverware. I get that. Am very annoyed at Premiership Rugby for allowing this situation to exist but recognise this backdrop is with us until one of the benefactors gets a bit bored or one of these clubs goes (close) to going out of business. (They won't actually be allowed to go out of business but that is another thing).

So my frustration with Tigers currently is not that we are not wining trophies but that we keep making the same mistakes and therefore are not playing well / learning to play better. This situation has persisted / got worse over the last three seasons or so. Here are three examples of our tactics that do not work but with which we persist.

1. Our main attacking threat in the opponents 22 - seems to be a pass that is too flat, and too hard designed to force our player to catch it just as he is being tackled by two players who have seen Tigers do this move time and time and time again. The result in about 8 out of 10 situations is a knock on by us and lost possession in the opponents 22 (the other two result in slow ball from a ruck. Can't remember a try occurring fro this). Now I do admit that flat hard passes have their place but until we learn to catch the ball reliably I think we should look for a plan B.

2. Box kicking in midfield - on third or fourth phase in midfield we inevitably result to a shortish box kick. Again this kick (a shortish kick) has its place but so ineffective is our kick chase that this tactic usually results in us exchanging possession for 10 yards. Without good kick chase we might as well kick long as the opposition will still get the possession but at least will be further away from our try line.

3. Defensive line outs - since Geoff Parling left we have had little nous in defending line outs. The current tactic first adopted about three years ago was to let the opponents gain the ball unchallenged. But without an effective maul this allows the opponents to catch drive and score with alarming regularity. Those of us who made the trip to Allianz Park last January still have nightmares about this. Exeter exploited it this weekend and I would be astonished is Sarries do not score at least two tries this way at the weekend.

All three of the above have their place but rely on a key (missing) skill - catching the ball, effective kick chase or a strong defensive maul. We don't have the requisite skills but persist with the tactics and have done for far too long.

If you can't change the people, you need to change the people.

[Grumpy of Crumbie]

Sadly I think that any real expectations for this season are gone. A top six finish being the remaining target and a absolute must have.

The measure now for Leicester Tigers is what happens longer term. I don't believe there is any quick fix for the current problems so it's what happens next to prepare us for better days ahead that really matters.

I don't know if that is changes at Board level, coaching staff, playing staff, fitness, conditioning, medical, psychology or a combination of all of the above. To knee jerk is to paper over cracks a proper drains up, far reaching review is required.

We should all open our minds to this being external if necessary to get to the root cause of this slow demise and put in solid building blocks for the future. Unfortunately this may bring into play the dreaded 'transition' word, but if that is after an open and honest assessment of where we are and where we want to be then so be it.

[chewbacca]

I think we have already transitioned from champions to mid table also rans. We just need to get used to competing with Glaws, Worcs, Sale and Bris

[ourla]

After Sarries and Wasps our final stretch of Prem matches are:

Home to Gloucester
Home to Bristol
Away to Quins
Home to Chiefs
Away to Saints
Away to Bath (Twickenham)
Home to Falcons
Home to Sale
Away to Worcester

Assuming we are out of Europe I can see us putting a run together - certainly there is no excuse not to, with that run of fixtures/schedule - that will sneak us in to the top 4. We will on all known form lose the semi. So I think we will end up the season where we are now - still "in the mix" but never seeming to be able get back to the top of the pile. A place that I see as a bit of a rock and hard place. Sacking Cockerill will be both the easiest and the hardest thing to do.

[G.K]

Things need to be looked at in context and the current context is that Bath, Wasps and Saracens have allegedly spent more than the rules allow, on weak unsustainable business models and no matter how well we play or recruit or train we are unlikely to win silverware. I get that. Am very annoyed at Premiership Rugby for allowing this situation to exist but recognise this backdrop is with us until one of the benefactors gets a bit bored or one of these clubs goes (close) to going out of business. (They won't actually be allowed to go out of business but that is another thing).

So my frustration with Tigers currently is not that we are not wining trophies but that we keep making the same mistakes and therefore are not playing well / learning to play better. This situation has persisted / got worse over the last three seasons or so. Here are three examples of our tactics that do not work but with which we persist.

1. Our main attacking threat in the opponents 22 - seems to be a pass that is too flat, and too hard designed to force our player to catch it just as he is being tackled by two players who have seen Tigers do this move time and time and time again. The result in about 8 out of 10 situations is a knock on by us and lost possession in the opponents 22 (the other two result in slow ball from a ruck. Can't remember a try occurring fro this). Now I do admit that flat hard passes have their place but until we learn to catch the ball reliably I think we should look for a plan B.

2. Box kicking in midfield - on third or fourth phase in midfield we inevitably result to a shortish box kick. Again this kick (a shortish kick) has its place but so ineffective is our kick chase that this tactic usually results in us exchanging possession for 10 yards. Without good kick chase we might as well kick long as the opposition will still get the possession but at least will be further away from our try line.

3. Defensive line outs - since Geoff Parling left we have had little nous in defending line outs. The current tactic first adopted about three years ago was to let the opponents gain the ball unchallenged. But without an effective maul this allows the opponents to catch drive and score with alarming regularity. Those of us who made the trip to Allianz Park last January still have nightmares about this. Exeter exploited it this weekend and I would be astonished is Sarries do not score at least two tries this way at the weekend.

All three of the above have their place but rely on a key (missing) skill - catching the ball, effective kick chase or a strong defensive maul. We don't have the requisite skills but persist with the tactics and have done for far too long.

If you can't change the people, you need to change the people.

Ok you've noticed these points, yet the current coaches appear not to be able to, or if they do to be able to correct it.

The job's yours, when can you start?

[Hinckley Bob]

People are suggesting that, as the best supported club, there are no money problems,it is just an excuse and we spend the same as the other top clubs. Even if we believe that Sarries, Wasps and Bath adhere to the salary cap, would any of them fail to sign a replacement for their star signing (Matt Toomua) if out for the season. It would indicate to me that we are on a tighter budget than the aforementioned.
We are also now suffering the problems that others have in the past. When we were the undisputed top club, we did not need to offer top money as players wanted to play for us and we virtually had our choice. Unfortunately, as my mother used to say "What comes around, goes around".

[GS]

I'm not convinced that Johnno is the man for DOR but a few years ago I suggested that he should be brought in to coach mauling as this had gone from the Tigers' repertoire. I still think this.

It should be remembered that Lofreda and then Meyer were recruited as outside coaches with track records. I think Lofreda was hard done to and should have brought his own coaches in instead of going with all the existing coaches and Mayer left mid-season due to family reasons, his wife's illness. As a result Cockers was promoted to DOR, mid season, pending the appointment of an experienced DOR at the end of the season. Working with the existing team he did OK and the appointment was made permanent.

Some have said that Deano similarly inherited a decent team from the previous DOR. John Wells inherited Deano's seat until he left when the board refused to give him a full time contract to replace his rolling one, leading to Wiggy leaving in sympathy to join him at Twickers. Pat Howard came back to coach Tigers, as a very popular ex-player, and did OK but his press comments after games did have their fair smattering of the quote 'Well, we had a bad day at the office.......' Howard leaving to return to Aus to develop his chemists business, but pretty soon appeared working for the Aussie cricket set-up

My point being that Cockers has had a good run as DOR, longer than his recent predecessors, but the Tigers decline has happened during his watch. I'm not convinced that appointing ex players is the way to go, Johnno is one of the greatest captains the game has seen but running a team away from the pitch is a different job altogether. The 'bad day at the office' performances have become more and more frequent, and dramatic, and I imagine the board are looking around for a replacement. If Cockers jumps or is pushed before the end of the season I can see that the board will have no other option than to give the job to Mauger, another ex-player, as they did with Cockers, and I don't think he will manage to get the Tigers relegated and stands a chance of scraping into Europe next year - about all we look like doing at the moment.

I don't know what the management set-up will look like next season but I can't see it being the same as this year. I've never been a great fan of Cockers as DOR but the club and the team are bigger than one person and I feel he now has to go.

[tigercaspian]

People are suggesting that, as the best supported club, there are no money problems,it is just an excuse and we spend the same as the other top clubs. Even if we believe that Sarries, Wasps and Bath adhere to the salary cap, would any of them fail to sign a replacement for their star signing (Matt Toomua) if out for the season. It would indicate to me that we are on a tighter budget than the aforementioned.
We are also now suffering the problems that others have in the past. When we were the undisputed top club, we did not need to offer top money as players wanted to play for us and we virtually had our choice. Unfortunately, as my mother used to say "What comes around, goes around".

What goes around, comes around surely? I don't doubt your mother's meaning though!

Good spot on our budget too but, if you have the time, please trawl through this thread and see my comments on others finances.

Unfortunately, these days the top players expect the top clubs to pay the top money and their agents are not reimbursed by a clubs reputation. These days clubs have a choice of what they can pay for.

[trendylfj]

Can I pin my colours truly on the highest flag post in the country and say that whatever happens during the rest of the season and say that RC, RB and possibly GM should go. I would say that even if we win some silver this season.
GM was a brilliant FB but as a coach has yet to prove himself so he remains a possibility for me. The others are now failing as a DR and as a forwards/lineout coach and it is essential that they are replaced asap.

I will repeat what I said over a month ago that I would be looking to bring in Chris Boyd before he is snapped up by the AB to replace SH. I would try for him first and if unsuccessful look to bring in Milton Haig as DR. Has moved Georgia into a position where they are on the fringe of becoming a real threat to the weaker NH national sides such as Italy. Either could do a great job for us INHO.

Skills coach for me would be Ben Ryan - did a brilliant job with Fiji and before he fell out with Rob Andrew also did a brilliant job with the England 7's team. I understand that he is being sought by pro 12, top 14 and super rugby in Australia.

We have missed the boat with Wiggy I believe but he would still be on my long term list of wants - I believe MJ could sort out our set piece problems in the short term but not sure if he would be interested in that sort of a role but our set piece forward play does need sorting urgently.

Earlier posts made comments about flat passes, 3 up forward drives and short box kicks being our standard "moves" and they are right. Easy to defend against any move when you know what is going to happen. Variety is not only the spice of life but is very difficult to defend against. Bath's "diamond" attacks offered so many different options and they were successful.

You can't win games without the ball so why do we give it back so often with not chased kicks? Does that not say we think we cannot break the defensive line and that we hope for a mistake by the catcher? Yes, kicks have a place, but only if the rest follow them up.

All of these problems start by the instructions on tactics and the training methods employed. The coaches are the people who decide these so the question is easy for me - some coaches have to go and we should start at the top.

[baz1664]

The last post is an honest evaluation of the current situation, we have a poorly skilled/lack of experienced coaching staff and a DOR who has his limitations, a clear out is required now, why wait till the end of the season, were not going to be relegated, were pretty much out of Europe, 5th or 6th looks like a likely finishing spot, the LV cup is the only hope of silverware. The tigers heart has disappeared with players looking disinterested and confused due to the lack of a solid game plan, to see the Tigers whimpering backwards from a simple catch and drive time after time is painful to watch. Cockers has been hanging on for the past few seasons nicking high profile wins at the right time, we cannot keep blaming injuries/salary cap etc, the simple fact is clear that the current coaching staff are second rate.

[Grumpy of Crumbie]

Some very good points and opinions being put forward. As I said in my previous post time should be taken to carry out a proper review and put all the pieces of the jigsaw together in a planned and thought out way. The danger is we could easily finish up appointing a new team that have different views and can't get along together. A recipe for continuing under performance.

Interesting points about money and salary cap, doesn't seem long ago that every other club were pointing fingers at Tigers who must be breaching the rules to be that successful. I seem to remember we laughed it off as excuses for others not being able to compete with the top club in Europe.

I don't want to see this as an excuse or an acceptance for not being able to compete with Saracens, Waps or Bath. We are a big enough club to compete with anybody.

[Rykard]

If the club are unable to spend, then it won't matter whether wr get rid of cockers or not. We won't be able to compete. I think it would be good to get a straight answer from sc...