Is it now time to thank Cockers?

[jgriffin]

Shake the tree and the nuts fall into the sand.

We seem to differ actually on our attitude to 'immediate change' rather than differ on support for Tigers (I hope, being a charitable sort). I'm not a happyclapper nor a fool; like many who are being positive on here I think things aren't right but I'm not enough of an idiot (despite some opinions voiced on here)to think they will be solved by sacking Cockers and/or Mauger this week, or next. I do think someone should go, and have voiced that opinion before (therefore not a happy clapper). I do think Tigers need a new, better evidenced and less experimental coaching input and two or three players at least (e.g. a big No 8). The current set-up will have to do till the summer and deserves our support (and less of the ludicrous 'Cockers out' brigade on this forum).

Finally
" With every post JGriffin tries desperately to rewrite history, the latest condemning TTE's lack of effort at Tigers, conveniently forgetting that once he declared his availability for England IMHO his days at Tigers were numbered by RC and his treatment was shameful, of course this was not limited to just him viz 36, Salvi, Moody, Castrogiavani, Ford, Brooks, Aguilla."
TTTE had a woeful last season at Tigers and a pretty woeful first season at Chiefs, where he was considered by some fans to be a lazy goal-poacher (this is opinion served up by my brother Mike, a STH there, and all his mates, plus a fairly prominent Chiefs employee who is a good friend of both Mike and me). 36 was not a MOC favourite, neither was Moody (read his autobiography for a description of what happened and how he felt betrayed by the Board and RC too), Ford shafted Tigers for the £££, Salvi of course b@llsed up his re-signing, Brookes was permanently injured, and others have argued about what happened to the rest. Sorry, your argument is a little broken IMO. That's doesn't invalidate me from the accustion of re-writing history, but it does suggest a little re-writing on the proponents side too.

[RagingBull]

I think the lunatics have taken over the madhouse ! We are in a situation where every away game against a top 4 side is a guaranteed heavy loss , our overall play year on year seems to get worse and worse , our England representation gets smaller and smaller - we are really in poor shape as a Club . I find it amazing that the Board have not acted by now , but am encouraged that the silence means that something will happen soon .

Thank goodness for some sanity.

For years the so called happy clappers have thrived on their version of support, accusing others of doom-mongering. Well its now occurred to me they are the doom mongers, proclaiming we now have to accept mediocrity, as Cockerill seems to have done. Lets blame the lack of funds, (we are still the best supported club in the country, supposedly now as someone else as posted operating at the same salary cap level. Oh ok, lets blame the ref on a week by week basis, no ok lets blame the injury list or international call ups, no ok let's blame the other coaches or shall we blame the tea ladies. With every post JGriffin tries desperately to rewrite history, the latest condemning TTE's lack of effort at Tigers, conveniently forgetting that once he declared his availability for England IMHO his days at Tigers were numbered by RC and his treatment was shameful, of course this was not limited to just him viz 36, Salvi, Moody, Castrogiavani, Ford, Brooks, Aguilla.

Just some commonsense questions that suggest serious problems:
What is going on with our No. 8 situation, who is our 1st & 2nd choice hooker. Tom Young has not played well all year, if Richard Cockerill believes the advantages Thacker brings to the loose outweighs the liabilities in the scrum then have the courage of your convictions and back the lad by playing him regularly. George Worth thrown in at the deep end against Munster, then made a scapegoat to accommodate OW, Roberts and FB. Who is his first choice fly half? Whats going on with Will Evans England U20 W/C man of the tournament (IMHO and many others) now unable to get a start & getting splinters every week until the final 10 mins when the game is lost..

This posts sums up why we can never get a decent debate. Always those on both sides that like to spread and start :censored:.

Ford, Twevetrees, Brookes, Castro where hardly treated shamefully only in the heads of idiots.
Ford went to the club his dad was head coach of pretty simple that.
36 had agreed terms with Tigers then two days later said that he was going to Glous for guaranteed game time and more money.
Brookes IMO was a mix of injuries and his fondness for fried chicken and other fast food.
Castro cried that his move was down to game time and not money despite the fact that he joined a club with the best TH at the time in heyman where he became a bench warmer (also happened to be the richest club at the time player wages wise.

All of those mentioned where not better than the current starters, simple as that.

I agree Moody was harshly done by but we did the right thing, Salvi was a cock up mostly by Cohen and Mauger though (mainly Cohen). Agulla yeh was prob harshly done by although I don't know how much he wanted.


Also Cockers hasn't been blaming the ref every week either this was first time in a long time he has done so.

Could be wrong but didn't worth get his first start in the AWC v Bath followed by another game in the AWC followed by getting his first AP start v the bottom of the table Bristol hardly thrown in the deep end he also started against Munster the week after and did well, this weekend was prob more down to resting him since he played 5/6 games on the trot nearly.

Best supporters club doesn't mean = money though either. (Although we are fine for money and it is being used as an excuse).

[tigercaspian]

I think the lunatics have taken over the madhouse ! We are in a situation where every away game against a top 4 side is a guaranteed heavy loss , our overall play year on year seems to get worse and worse , our England representation gets smaller and smaller - we are really in poor shape as a Club . I find it amazing that the Board have not acted by now , but am encouraged that the silence means that something will happen soon .

The Board were also very quiet over the salary cap issue I seem to recall, so I'd put the tea leaves away.....

[Crumblies]

Typical replies from JGriffin & Ragingbull, dare to question & the name calling starts 'shake the tree & the nuts fall to the sand' or 'only in the heads of idiots'.

Then proclaim things as fact as if they have insider knowledge yet offer no evidence.

Some on here have been trying to have a reasoned debate for years only to be met with this type of response.

You can only talk sense & reason to those who are sensible & reasonable!

[RagingBull]

Typical replies from JGriffin & Ragingbull, dare to question & the name calling starts 'shake the tree & the nuts fall to the sand' or 'only in the heads of idiots'.

Then proclaim things as fact as if they have insider knowledge yet offer no evidence.

Some on here have been trying to have a reasoned debate for years only to be met with this type of response.

You can only talk sense & reason to those who are sensible & reasonable!

Lol dare to question what are you on about I don't care if people question the coaches etc, personally I want Cockerill and Mauger gone by next season and have stated that mutiple times now along with Cohen who can go now for all I care.

Also find it extremely hypocritical you going on about us stating things as facts without any evidence when in your very last post you did just that.

But hey what ever makes you sleep at night.

[Scott1]

Well that BP win for Exeter was the easiest game I've called all season,as will a LBP for us in the NYD loss to Sarries and then a BP win for Wasps a week later. Should Cockers be sacked after that? Imo yes. It's plain to see now that he has taken our great club as far as he can now and he is embarrassing us now. Continuing on from the end of last season I have lost count of the number of 30 point losses we have conceded and our set piece has become a joke. Our defending of rolling mauls is pathetic and our driving game not much better,we even struggle to transfer the ball to the back sometimes it's laughable. Our defending of the ruck is sometimes at junior level and we have conceded more than one try where we haven't any pillars/bodyguards in which is unforgivable at this level! Our line speed is atrocious and we struggle time after time to get back into a defensive line. I'm not gonna even start on our attacking play! Selection is a joke and Cockers looks like he's got some new favourites! We are stale and change needs to happen now. Even with Zmurphy in charge we will get a top 6 finish,we are not as good as the 4 above us but certainly better than the 7 underneath us. That gives us time to get someone in and plan for next season. Please don't call me a Cockers hater or just say I'm wrong. For you think anything I've said is wrong please pick the bones out of it and debate why. Merry Xmas everyone!

[fortysix]

Am afraid all this is 150% correct

We are useless against any of the top teams away, in League and Cup..

It is a wonder anybody bothers to travel as not only have the management written these games off, but the players and supporters have as well

Feel sorry for newcomers, but trust me, there was a day when you got in your car to travel to Pau , Beziers or Paris and actually expected the Tigers to win----yes, really !!!

Moreover, they normally did !!

Shame on some of this bunch for their seeming lack of committment---- management and all

[mol2]

Just to drag up the Twelvtrees bit-his decision to leave immediately after apparently agreeing terms wasn't good but that shouldn't mask the way his career was held back by being used on the bench (if in the match squad) when he not unreasonably felt he was worthy of better.

TTE was clearly history from the moment he chose England and was shunted to 6. Good enough an 8 for England but bench warmer for Crane at Tigers.

Castro was not handled well, he may have struggled to understand the rise of Cole meant he was unlikely to be the starter in the big games, but 5 minute cameos at the end of games was not a great example of squad rotation, exhausting Cole for no good reason and depriving Castro of enough game time to maintain form and match fitness.

Professional sport has no room for anything other than ruthlessly objective decision making and this has been a clear weakness at Tigers for too long.

These players are examples of how we seem to too easily lose talented players. You wonder if they had relatives who were former players they would have been treated differently?

Management is more than picking a team it is about balancing the needs of the team and the individuals and formulating a cohesive unit. Tigers don't look a happy cohesive unit.

[RagingBull]

Castro wasn't limited to 5 min cameos he started what 7 AP of the 17 games available in his last season, the majority of his game from the bench was 30-20 mins which is normal for second choice.

That sounds like the normal rotation to me.

[Soggypitch]

I've been thinking about this a lot (sadly!) and I have great respect for Cocker's honesty, hard work, and above all his loyalty.

But I have lost confidence in his ability as a top class coach and in the quality of player recruitment. Yes notionally Mauger is head coach, but nobody is in any doubt who has the final say on tactics, selection and player recruitment/retention.

Our backs have not played consistently well for a long time (injuries have not helped) BUT the real problem remains in the forwards. Unless we can provide good front foot ball, win our set piece, win the collisions and consistently defend rucks and in particular driving mauls, then frankly the backs are living off scraps. Forwards win games, backs decide etc.....

So yes finally I have made up my mind that Cockers should leave at some point, which the Board will need to judge.

As to a replacement, well many will disagree, but there is a big man (in the true sense of the word) living in South Leicestershire who's rugby knowledge and skills are sadly not being utilised.

Martin Johnson was England's best ever captain, a fantastic Lion's Captain, one of Leicester's best ever players (forwards anyway), he is intelligent and a student of the game. His experience and presence are required back at the Tigers ASAP!!

Peter Toms or someone else on the Board should be speaking seriously to him now, preparing him to take over from Cockers at the right time.

But some will say, he made a hash of the England job and he has no real coaching credentials....

Well he was actually not that bad a coach with England, but was undone by incidents outside of his control at the Word Cup in NZ.

Also I could take as many coaching courses as it's possible to do, and never profess to be in the same league as MJ in terms of rugby knowledge and leadership. If he could be persuaded to commit to the Tigers job, he will quickly make up his mind about the quality of the other coaches (Mauger/Blaze in particular) and should be given a free rein.

If Tigers put their faith in him and if he could be tempted to do the job, he will do it well and IMO transform the fortunes of the Club.

Happy New Year all!!

[fleabane]

MJ was a legend as a player, but how do you know he can coach? He had some success with a one dimensional approach with England, but that hardly makes him a top class premiership level coach.

Tigers need an experienced forwards coach (Blaze moved from player to coach, and the forwards have been deteriorating ever since with his, and Cockerills help), backs, defence and attack coaches if we are to compete with Sarries, who currently occupy the "Best Team in Europe" position we once boasted.

How Cockerill and Cohen agreed that the club could manage having sacked the defence coach without appointing another is beyond understanding.

All clubs suffer injuries, sickness and call-ups, (some also cope with frequent bans), and poor referees. None of these is an excuse for performing in the way that Tigers have been performing. None of these excuse the flow of 30+ point defeats that only those clubs at the bottom of the table can equal. If it is totally the players responsibility, as some on here would have it, we have the wrong players. If any of it is the coaches', we have the wrong coaches.

They cannot keep playing the same tune. Time for major change before we end up with away games in Cornwall instead of Paris or Toulouse.

[chewbacca]

MJ was a legend as a player, but how do you know he can coach? He had some success with a one dimensional approach with England, but that hardly makes him a top class premiership level coach.

Tigers need an experienced forwards coach (Blaze moved from player to coach, and the forwards have been deteriorating ever since with his, and Cockerills help), backs, defence and attack coaches if we are to compete with Sarries, who currently occupy the "Best Team in Europe" position we once boasted.

How Cockerill and Cohen agreed that the club could manage having sacked the defence coach without appointing another is beyond understanding.

All clubs suffer injuries, sickness and call-ups, (some also cope with frequent bans), and poor referees. None of these is an excuse for performing in the way that Tigers have been performing. None of these excuse the flow of 30+ point defeats that only those clubs at the bottom of the table can equal. If it is totally the players responsibility, as some on here would have it, we have the wrong players. If any of it is the coaches', we have the wrong coaches.

They cannot keep playing the same tune. Time for major change before we end up with away games in Cornwall instead of Paris or Toulouse.

If we have the wrong players whose fault is that. The coaches who selected and recruited them surely

[fleabane]

Agreed, chewbaca.

[mol2]

MJ had one brief foray into coaching which was a flop.

Tigers need yet another inexperienced coach like a hole in the head.
Richards Blaze and Cockerill have negligible coaching experience outside of Tigers.
Mauger coached relatively unsuccessfully in New Zealand and even then that is relatively little experience.

These are not coaches brought through at a successful club in the way of a Bob Paisley under Bill Shankley at Liverpool.

Our coaches are dedicated and willing having stepped into the breech in what has been testing times for Tigers. However they have no experienced help and no apparent plans to manage the limitations of the squad and to exploit it's strengths.

They need another Bob Dwyer.

[jgriffin]

MJ had one brief foray into coaching which was a flop.

Tigers need yet another inexperienced coach like a hole in the head.
Richards Blaze and Cockerill have negligible coaching experience outside of Tigers.
Mauger coached relatively unsuccessfully in New Zealand and even then that is relatively little experience.

These are not coaches brought through at a successful club in the way of a Bob Paisley under Bill Shankley at Liverpool.

Our coaches are dedicated and willing having stepped into the breech in what has been testing times for Tigers. However they have no experienced help and no apparent plans to manage the limitations of the squad and to exploit it's strengths.

They need another Bob Dwyer.

Not sure about the Barbed Wire, but a fair assessment.