George North stood down from playing

[mol2]

The more I look at that, the more I question why North jumped at all other than to avoid a tackle.
Look at what height the ball was when he caught it.

I am not convinced Thommo should have been penalised. He was looking for a player he expected to be competing for a ball that was below shoulder height by the time North got to it, and would have not expected to be considering he was about to tackle a player in the air.

I take back what I said about North not being KO'd. I would be concerned for his future because he didn't fall far and most of the impact was taken by his shoulder and whist his head took a good jolt as it hit the ground I'm not sure most players would have been KO'd by that.

[Grimlish]

Sorry Grimlish but the same physio was running on grabbing Foden's head when he got dumped earlier and remonstrating with the officials also whenever a player is on the ground all physio's grab the head and speak to the player before they are allowed to move.

Well of course they do Dhhhd - but either they're doing it for effect or for a real purpose. What was the physio's prupose on this occasion (and to me he did so with more urgency than you often see)? As the first on the scene he will have clearly understood GN's at best semi-conscious condition.

[trendylfj]

The more I look at that, the more I question why North jumped at all other than to avoid a tackle.
Look at what height the ball was when he caught it.

I am not convinced Thommo should have been penalised. He was looking for a player he expected to be competing for a ball that was below shoulder height by the time North got to it, and would have not expected to be considering he was about to tackle a player in the air.

I was typing exactly this when last night when visitors arrived and abandoned the post. Yes he put his arm out as though expecting a player on the ground and GN would have hit his shoulders whatever Tommo did. Sorry to say it but now I think it was entirely GN's fault and I wish him a very quick return to health. He should also consider his future in the mean time

[biffer]

I have no problem with the refereeing of the incident - it's an unusual one due to the bounce of the ball and various other circumstances, and for the wider game I'm happy to see an incident like this treated the way it was. I saw something on another forum which helps to explain it -

...while they realise that there will be some circumstances where there really was no intent, and the perpetrator really couldn't help it, because they don't want ever to give players the idea that they can get away with making it look like an accident, ALL cases are penalised, with the rationalisation that it is better to convict a few innocents if it means that a player doesn't end up quadriplegic. After all the punishment for the perpetrator is usually less harsh than having to learn to paint with a brush in your mouth. We all seem to agree that the tackler was innocent anyway, so no major harm has been done.

More importantly, all the discussion of the tackle is a distraction from the far more worrying and serious issue of North being allowed back on the pitch and the way that Saints have handled this as an organisation. I hope the panel has the cojones to haul them over the coals today - a significant fine as a minimum is a must, otherwise rugby is not taking the issue seriously.

[jgriffin]

http://tinyurl.com/jny2899

Either this is serious or there will be a whitewash.

[sapajo]

http://tinyurl.com/jny2899

Either this is serious or there will be a whitewash.

I fail to understand why this is taking so long? Simply saying the investigation must be rigourous as the reason does not rub with me. I fear the outcome of this will be as random as the majority of citing hearing sanctions.

[strawclearer]

http://tinyurl.com/jny2899

Either this is serious or there will be a whitewash.

I fail to understand why this is taking so long? Simply saying the investigation must be rigourous as the reason does not rub with me. I fear the outcome of this will be as random as the majority of citing hearing sanctions.

"It is understood the panel are reluctant to rush a "very rigorous" process." BBC

Are they taking longer than usual - if so, why? Do they conduct processes which are not "very rigorous"? Hmmm

[biffer]

http://tinyurl.com/jny2899

Either this is serious or there will be a whitewash.

I would suggest it's serious and they're checking that they're bulletproof from a legal point of view in case Saints decide to take it to something like CAS.

[fleabane]

They will need to hear from the providers of the TV feed, Saint's medics and coaches, probably players who were close to the incident, ref and touch judge, RFU nominated neurosurgeon to determine North's likely state before treatment, amongst others. . And then the legal vampires.

[Cagey Tiger]

Apologies, from looking at the video, you don't really get to see George's head until it hits the ground. However, what concerns me is the way that he bounces like a rag doll. There is no tensing of any muscles or any attempted voluntary movement after his head hits the ground, even though he slides a yard or two.

Just noticed two other things.

I know that the ground was soft, but George's head made a fair old dint in the grass, there's a big, head sized, brown patch where it landed (for those who feel that punctuation isn't necessary, not having the comma between "big" and "head" would make the sentence read very differently).

Also, just after the medic cradles George's head, you can see George's right leg lift up below the knee. Based on this movement and the bounce/limp limbs, I think that that George lost consciousness, but only for a second or two at most. As such, neither George nor the medic might have realised it, but having seen a number of players definitely get knocked out, George's behaviour looks frighteningly (for George) the same.

[Offside]

Cagey Tiger has made some very good points here.

I have refed games (at a lower level) with concussion and neck injuries and been through the RFU First Aid and Head Case training.
North could have got a bash to his neck and laid still but the lack of tone in his body or any movement does suggest he has been knocked out. The Physio will try to stabilise the neck by holding the head and then talk to the player, asking what they can feel in their limbs, source of any other pain and then depending on the answers suggest they try to move the digits, then limbs before any neck or back movement is attempted. When he does get up he does seem to walk straight and presumably speak coherently. However, the video evidence seems very clear to me. With his history letting him back on seems risky. Doing it with a player with no history and that video would be risky!

In this case and looking at some of the other incidents with George North it seems he does not have a lot of muscle tone / head control when landing hard on the ground. Is this because he is blacking out at the initial hit? He is a big guy and has some neck muscle so it does seem odd. He does not seem to land well. Learning to fall properly avoids injuries in martial arts. Should this training be added to the concussion prevention protocols? Would George North still get played if he did not compete for such balls to protect himself. He is good running too! If Tommo had got the ball and North tackled him Tommo would probably have had to hold on and give away a penalty.

There have been some comments regarding swapping the onus of the Laws so the defender on the ground has priority. Last year at Sale Luke Arscott, I think, came flying into get a ball and a Leicester player was penalised for making contact. I thought it was plain dangerous by Arscott and gave little option to the Leicester player who was jumping straight up when he came in higher but from the side and actually hit him from above. These challenges show terrific athletisism but with the speed and possibility to be knocked off balance by even small contact should diving into the space over another player be the penalty. An attacking player would need to get to where the ball was going to land before jumping.

In hindsight, Tommmo should have jumped for the ball too but he prepared to tackle in a low stance and then responded to a player in the air instinctively - and incorrectly in hindsight and in the eyes of the laws. Coaching point is to leave well alone. Difficult to do though.

[sapajo]

They will need to hear from the providers of the TV feed, Saint's medics and coaches, probably players who were close to the incident, ref and touch judge, RFU nominated neurosurgeon to determine North's likely state before treatment, amongst others. . And then the legal vampires.

Indeed quite so! Seems this was only done yesterday according to the report on the BBC Rugby website.

"A panel representative visited Northampton on Friday to discuss the incident with the key people involved."

[Iain]

For what it's worth, I was speaking to a friend of mine who is a GP about this yesterday and showed him the footage on my phone. His immediate reaction was that he was clearly out cold before he'd even hit the deck and that he was horrified that any medical practitioner has allowed him to come back on or indeed failed to spot that there was a possible concussion.

A statement is due today isn't it?

[Grimlish]

I think we are promised something 'this week' Iain.

If North was out cold before he hit the floor then that means without any possibility he had hit his head. If so, sadly, he'd be a fool to play again.

[Iain]

I think we are promised something 'this week' Iain.

If North was out cold before he hit the floor then that means without any possibility he had hit his head. If so, sadly, he'd be a fool to play again.

I'd leave that judgement to a doctor, but I know what you mean. Just what was in effect a small collision (forget the legality or otherwise of the tackle) was enough to KO him is terrifying and a whole new layer of worrying.

My hypothesis is that North felt okay when he came round and asked for the loss of consciousness to be kept quiet, knowing the implications it would have on his career.