Leicester Tigers 2016/17 Squad/Transfers/Contract thread 2

[ellis9]

It's not as simple as using local lads. How many of those do Wasps have? Bath only have a couple as do Saracens.

[BFG]

It's not as simple as using local lads. How many of those do Wasps have? Bath only have a couple as do Saracens.

I'm afraid it is that simple.
It's about culture.
Wasps are a poor example to use, they are moneybags at present but believe it or not they have not won a damn thing yet despite all the recent fuss.
Saracens have more than just a couple and would be a far better example to use in utilising every available asset to the full and balancing it to produce a winning squad, but the culture comes from within and is enhanced from the outside and not vice versa.
Would it also surprise you to know that Tigers have bigger earners than Sarries!
Sarries have built a harmonious squad of players of all levels that all buy into a culture.
Finding those characters that give more for less are crucial to building a great culture IMO and that is something your local boys will always bring and should be built around!

[ellis9]

No it wouldn't surprise me. How can Sarries have all of those players on a high wage and stick to the rules? They pay lower wages obviously.

I know Wasps haven't won anything and I agree we shouldn't compare us and them but so many Tigers fans do because if the way they play rugby.

Sarries don't have that many local lads. Farrell is Northern so doesn't count, so is Wigglesworth. Unless by local you mean young players that have come through the academy? In that case, we have plenty. Perhaps you could tell me all of Saracens local lads?

Tigers have:
Tom Croft- born in Basingstoke but a Leicester lad
Matt Smith
Dan Cole
Harry Thacker
Sam Harrison
Manu Tuilagi has spent the majority of his life in Leicester
George Worth
Youngs brothers born in Norwich but Tigers in their blood

[TTRITH]

Sarries don't have that many local lads. Farrell is Northern so doesn't count, so is Wigglesworth. Unless by local you mean young players that have come through the academy? In that case, we have plenty. Perhaps you could tell me all of Saracens local lads?

Just a gander at Academy graudates in their first team squad.

Nathan Earle (5 apps)
Will Fraser (77)
Matt Hankin (17)
Maro Itoje (57)
Ben Spencer (60)
Scott Spurling (16)
Nick Tompkins (35)
Jackson Wray (148)
Owen Farrell (133) - Yes, you could argue he did a lot of training in RL, but he made his debut at 17 for them.
Jamie George (154)
Alex Goode (210)
George Kruis (126)

Compared to ours

George Catchpole (15)
Dan Cole (166)
Tom Croft (168)
Will Evans (16)
Sam Harrison (116)
Harry Thacker (44)
Manu Tuilagi (93)
Harry Wells (12)
Ben Youngs (192)
Tom Youngs (120)
George Worth (7)

Saracens 12 (1038 apps) against Tigers 11 (949)

This information is as up to date as the respective websites allow. This also doesn't include any development lads who have played in the first team, except for George Worth.

[RagingBull]

Are we talking academy products or where they where born?

[TTRITH]

Are we talking academy products or where they where born?

Local lads surely mean those grown through the club (academy products)? The club, in theory, would mean more to them, then say someone born in Leicester but goes through the ranks at Saints?

[BFG]

Are we talking academy products or where they where born?

Local lads surely mean those grown through the club (academy products)? The club, in theory, would mean more to them, then say someone born in Leicester but goes through the ranks at Saints?

I really mean local in terms of the community, but there is no set formula, you don't not take a top player just because he is from somewhere else but a culture needs to be sufficient enough in quality and numbers to be able to impose itself on those brought in from outside.
At present I see some signs of the opposite.

[chewbacca]

I don't think locality is a real determinant but bonding is and that is developed the more time that a squad spends together (continuity) and is enhanced where initial bonding begins at an early age. The academy would therefore seem vital in the development of both. Staff churn in low numbers can enhance performance, in large numbers disrupt.

[RagingBull]

Are we talking academy products or where they where born?

Local lads surely mean those grown through the club (academy products)? The club, in theory, would mean more to them, then say someone born in Leicester but goes through the ranks at Saints?

I really mean local in terms of the community, but there is no set formula, you don't not take a top player just because he is from somewhere else but a culture needs to be sufficient enough in quality and numbers to be able to impose itself on those brought in from outside.
At present I see some signs of the opposite.

So players like Worth, Catchpole, Evans and Thacker? Who have gone from watching in the stands to playing on the pitch.

Yeh I see what you mean though, what's the point of bringing in a average squad player when you could use a local lad who has dreamed of playing for the club. (And likely for a fraction of the cost to begin with and will remain loyal).
Would a player like Betts if he becomes top class stay with us or go to Munster should they come calling?

Although saying that the one of the biggest legend of Tigers Murphy worked out well and he was a Leinster reject pretty much.

Guess it is hard to judge at the time.

[fortysix]

Cutting through all the :censored:!

Saracens Management, Staff and players have delivered 120%

Ours are miles behind, Board input, Coaching Staff quality , player attitude.

All is swings and roundabouts, but our turn off that roundabout is heading in the wrong direction.

From someone who has watched the Tigers for 65 years.

[Tiger_in_Birmingham]

The Sarries academy is only going to go from strength to strength IMO, they pump so much time and effort into grass roots.

Their academy isn't about going to the same clubs and schools and looking for talent there (often harvested from smaller, less well known Sunday league teams), they invest and set up the Sunday league clubs themselves. They don't miss anyone who shows potential at any age grade, they keep an eye on them and encourage them to continue playing - all those kids play week in week out knowing Saracens, knowing that their club is supported and have coaches provided etc.

Anyone from any of those clubs will want to play for Saracens.

[4071]

Thing is, on top of actually utilizing their academy the Saracens' set-up has built up a real squad culture. We laughed at the 'something special' and the wolfpack nonsense, but it's worked.

They have a much lower squad churn than Tigers, they have more and better academy graduates coming through, and they are able to heavily rotate their squad and develop the fringe players because everyone seems equally familiar with their systems and buys into what they are trying to do.

They have developed consistency.

Man for man, there's a lot of Saracens starters/regulars that we wouldn't even consider for Tigers (Du Plessis, Barrington, Jim Hamilton :), Wray, Wigglesworth, Farrell (apparently), Barritt, Ashton, Taylor, Fenby, etc) but they perform for Saracens.

I think it's pretty obvious that Tigers have the players to be doing better than they are. We no longer get the best out of the players we do have.

[Snorbins]

Everything comes down to the money being pumped in. Saracens have their branded VW's zooming around Herts and parked outside one of the most expensive cities in the U.K.
Tigers cannot keep up with the expenditure required. We bring the messiah in Toomua and made the mistake of playing him, knee goes and we can't afford the injury replacement.
Everything is cyclical. Tigers will be back and supporters know that.

Not everything in rugby is an equal playing field. Councils dictate when their 'local' team can play, Saracens on a Friday night is dire.
Artificial pitches? Should all playing surfaces be the same?

That said there is no excuse for being nilled.

[h's dad]

Sarries don't have that many local lads. Farrell is Northern so doesn't count, so is Wigglesworth. Unless by local you mean young players that have come through the academy? In that case, we have plenty. Perhaps you could tell me all of Saracens local lads?

Just a gander at Academy graudates in their first team squad.

Nathan Earle (5 apps)
Will Fraser (77)
Matt Hankin (17)
Maro Itoje (57)
Ben Spencer (60)
Scott Spurling (16)
Nick Tompkins (35)
Jackson Wray (148)
Owen Farrell (133) - Yes, you could argue he did a lot of training in RL, but he made his debut at 17 for them.
Jamie George (154)
Alex Goode (210)
George Kruis (126)

Compared to ours

George Catchpole (15)
Dan Cole (166)
Tom Croft (168)
Will Evans (16)
Sam Harrison (116)
Harry Thacker (44)
Manu Tuilagi (93)
Harry Wells (12)
Ben Youngs (192)
Tom Youngs (120)
George Worth (7)

Saracens 12 (1038 apps) against Tigers 11 (949)

This information is as up to date as the respective websites allow. This also doesn't include any development lads who have played in the first team, except for George Worth.

So very similar then and even more so if you exclude OF who is rather shoehorned into the list. I'm surprised that there isn't a big difference as, like others, I don't think this is something Tigers have been good at over recent years as shoe size seems to count for a lot, nearly as much as a player's surname.

[RagingBull]

A lot of Scottish players out of contract

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzanaBXXAAEqHrt.jpg

Would like for us to try and sign any of
Hardie
Strauss (Glasgow not renewing contract)
Bradbury
Ashe
Kinghorn (Huge prospect at 15 and EQP although Worth is also promising maybe he could look to develop at 10?)