The old Harry Thacker debate

[ourla]

I must admit I sit on the fence as regards Harry. I don't know what the coaches or his team mates truly think but publicly they have been singing his praises. So here is what strikes me as a bit odd:

The number of appearances he has made has been ramped up over the last three seasons. Last year he featured in 17 Prem games and 6 ERC games - twelve as a starter. This season he has made a brief appearance as sub in two matches from nine we've played. And yes, I understand he got more starts/games because of injuries last season. But there is still a disparity.

In this article he was even being talked about in terms of England:

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/harry ... story.html

So what is going on with Harry? Is he in or out?

[strawclearer]

I must admit I sit on the fence as regards Harry. I don't know what the coaches or his team mates truly think but publicly they have been singing his praises. So here is what strikes me as a bit odd:

The number of appearances he has made has been ramped up over the last three seasons. Last year he featured in 17 Prem games and 6 ERC games - twelve as a starter. This season he has made a brief appearance as sub in two matches from nine we've played. And yes, I understand he got more starts/games because of injuries last season. But there is still a disparity.

In this article he was even being talked about in terms of England:

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/harry ... story.html

So what is going on with Harry? Is he in or out?

As you rightly say, we don't know the views of other 'stakeholders'. Reading that article, you could be forgiven for thinking that Cockers sees him as challenging YTY for the Tigers 2 shirt with the step up to international level the key question yet to be answered. Unfortunately (for Harry), an impartial observer would see him as 4th choice behind Youngs, Bateman and McGuigan simply from the evidence of selection to date.

So - is he in or out? I think.......yes.

[Iain]

He's third choice hooker on merit for me. Youngs and McGuigan are better at the key skills required to be a successful hooker.

Thacker is very good in the loose - but playing him to use those skills comes at a cost.

He is too good, however, to be a third choice hooker and so should seek a move away for the sake of his career.

[Tigerbeat]

I must admit I sit on the fence as regards Harry. I don't know what the coaches or his team mates truly think but publicly they have been singing his praises. So here is what strikes me as a bit odd:

The number of appearances he has made has been ramped up over the last three seasons. Last year he featured in 17 Prem games and 6 ERC games - twelve as a starter. This season he has made a brief appearance as sub in two matches from nine we've played. And yes, I understand he got more starts/games because of injuries last season. But there is still a disparity.

In this article he was even being talked about in terms of England:

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/harry ... story.html

So what is going on with Harry? Is he in or out?

Think that his appearances are clouded by the fact that Tom Youngs was out injured and there was a shortage of fit hookers.
Had Tom Youngs been fit, he would not have made the number of appearances that he did. A good player and good in the loose but it can be a liability in the front row.

[johnthegriff]

I disagree, I do not think Harry Thacker a liability in the front row. Yes he is short but has a fantastic muscular physique. Props are there to prop and to provide a cushion for the locks to shove on. Harry is well capable of looking after himself in the tight and in the loose is remarkable. For me he is our second best hooker and is really pushing Tom Youngs for the place.

[Iain]

I disagree, I do not think Harry Thacker a liability in the front row. Yes he is short but has a fantastic muscular physique. Props are there to prop and to provide a cushion for the locks to shove on. Harry is well capable of looking after himself in the tight and in the loose is remarkable. For me he is our second best hooker and is really pushing Tom Youngs for the place.

I think that's how it USED to be and how it SHOULD be. But the reality of the modern game is that the hooker has to push and can't rely on the props to do that work any more.

I happen to think he's have been an outstanding hooker 20 years ago, as it goes.

[Hot_Charlie]

I don't there's any agenda behind anything. The fact is that the club have England's RWC hooker and the incumbent England Saxons' hooker, so both are ahead of him in the pecking order. That said, I think the (apparently permanent) move of Bateman across to TH shows the confidence RC has in Thacker.

[ourla]

For me he is our second best hooker and is really pushing Tom Youngs for the place.

That's what you would have thought based on what Cockerill was saying last year but it doesn't appear to be the case now. Which is sort of what puzzles me.

[ourla]

McGuigan is almost a year older than Thacker and as been noted has represented the Saxons so I guess it makes sense Thacker is third in the pecking order.

Interestingly he is only 2cm taller and 3kg heavier according to Tigers player blogs.

Part of the problem of course is that Youngs has been overlooked by Jones and so there are less opportunities for both McGuigan and Thacker than we might have expected.

[tigercaspian]

"So - is he in or out? I think.......yes."

Strawclearer.....Sir Humphrey would be proud of you!

[BFG]

I disagree, I do not think Harry Thacker a liability in the front row. Yes he is short but has a fantastic muscular physique. Props are there to prop and to provide a cushion for the locks to shove on. Harry is well capable of looking after himself in the tight and in the loose is remarkable. For me he is our second best hooker and is really pushing Tom Youngs for the place.

I think that's how it USED to be and how it SHOULD be. But the reality of the modern game is that the hooker has to push and can't rely on the props to do that work any more.

I happen to think he's have been an outstanding hooker 20 years ago, as it goes.

It's a misconception that hookers never used to push.
Hookers have always helped with the push, but what they do is hook for the ball, hopefully have the upper body strength to hold off an attack, step over and then help with the push.
The problem I see that has been quite obvious is that the upper body strength isn't near where it needs to be and with the combined size and weight of packs nowadays if opposition get a nudge on it's very difficult to stop the momentum.
To be fair they do better than should be expected in the circumstances but digging in so hard hurts the legs all round and when it goes badly the props get blamed and no-one is happy.
It's not just scrummaging that is weak, defending the maul is also not of the standard but then he wasn't playing on Saturday and it wasn't great then either, maybe this is the cause of some indecision around the position, he can't do but then often neither can they.

[mol2]

I disagree, I do not think Harry Thacker a liability in the front row. Yes he is short but has a fantastic muscular physique. Props are there to prop and to provide a cushion for the locks to shove on. Harry is well capable of looking after himself in the tight and in the loose is remarkable. For me he is our second best hooker and is really pushing Tom Youngs for the place.

I'm afraid that leaving the pushing to the props only works if the opposition do too. Stick a Steve Thompson or a Jamie George in their and it all changes.
Why has the much admire Britz only played a few games for South Africa? Because at international level a hooker who can't push is a liability that can't be offset by any amount of open play brilliance.

Youngs is in the same boat as the likes of Andy Titterall and Lee Mears. At international level they lacked the scrummaging power. Does Thacker have the same problem at club level - I fear so. Exhausting Cole and Ayerza is not sustainable.

Who was Cockers arch rival for the Tigers shirt? Dorian West. The same conundrum.

[Noddy555]

As you will all know I am a fan of Harry Thacker so I disagree with most views on this post particularly Ian's. Thacker is not the third choice hooker, he should be the permanent substitute Hooker behind Tom Youngs, He is streets ahead of Mcguigan particularly in the loose. He is often first to the ball and has excellent distributive skills and an ability to spot a gap in the opposing defences. When he was of that age he was always first choice for England at under 19 and under 20 level. Unless he is carrying an injury why is he not always on the team sheet? For me he is second choice hooker not third and if we are not careful he'll do a George Ford and decamp to another Premiership club.

[Chobbsy]

I must admit I sit on the fence as regards Harry. I don't know what the coaches or his team mates truly think but publicly they have been singing his praises. So here is what strikes me as a bit odd:

The number of appearances he has made has been ramped up over the last three seasons. Last year he featured in 17 Prem games and 6 ERC games - twelve as a starter. This season he has made a brief appearance as sub in two matches from nine we've played. And yes, I understand he got more starts/games because of injuries last season. But there is still a disparity.

In this article he was even being talked about in terms of England:

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/harry ... story.html

So what is going on with Harry? Is he in or out?

I think he should be trained up to be a 7

[Iain]

As you will all know I am a fan of Harry Thacker so I disagree with most views on this post particularly Ian's. Thacker is not the third choice hooker, he should be the permanent substitute Hooker behind Tom Youngs, He is streets ahead of Mcguigan particularly in the loose. He is often first to the ball and has excellent distributive skills and an ability to spot a gap in the opposing defences. When he was of that age he was always first choice for England at under 19 and under 20 level. Unless he is carrying an injury why is he not always on the team sheet? For me he is second choice hooker not third and if we are not careful he'll do a George Ford and decamp to another Premiership club.

Problem is, all the qualities you've just listed for him (none of which I disagree with as it goes) are skills that are related either to being a 7 or a centre. His abilities as a hooker are what is called into question.