Bring on Sarries! - Teams Up

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h's dad
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Re: Bring on Sarries! - Teams Up

Post by h's dad » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:32 pm

Tigerbeat wrote:I asked the question to one of the Coaches as to whether Sports Psychologists were part of the Tigers set up and given a positive answer.
Thanks for asking the question. A problem might be that some top individuals in solo, or near-solo, sports pay a lot of money to get beneficial results from top practitioners. I know work is done but to try and achieve real results for a large squad of players may well be prohibitive for most teams in this sport.
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MrPartridge
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Re: Bring on Sarries! - Teams Up

Post by MrPartridge » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:38 pm



MrPartridge wrote:
Finding it hard to concur with some that it was a good performance. Maybe better than last few visits to AP and Glasgow, but they were in control from the starts and we never looked like winning.

The negatives: starting forwards didn't front up. Not to reignite the No 8 debate but we desperately need a ball carrier. I also feel Cole and Marcos (great servants) are on the wane: certainly no front row dominance or decent carriers from either.




Or were we expecting two class props to do all the scummaging - A lightweight hooker, second rows without much grunt and lightweight back row players might just be a factor. We saw what Cole did to the Aussie pack in the summer.
Mol2 I think you make a good point. Cole always better of late playing for England than Tigers? Playing against better players but with better players. I'm not writing him off, but he's not been anywhere near his international form for us over the last 12 months. Why?

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Re: Bring on Sarries! - Teams Up

Post by kend » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:55 pm

ourla wrote:
kend wrote:Well yes, but if he carries or gives the short pass, it was likely to end in contact and the ball on the ground, so you lose the advantage the break has given you. Taking the option of the long pass carried more risk, but if Thompstone takes it, and Betham follows his pass, there is a good chance you avoid contact and score. Right call IMHO. He's got a rather limited amount of time to assess the options.
Watch again. Look at where the defenders are. Betham is :censored: quick. I fancied his chances of making the try line. The alternative was to draw the defenders to him and make the shorter pass to (I think) Roberts who was trailing him. Thompstone had better coverage than I did even if the pass had gone to hand. If he'd held on and got tackled worst case scenario is we would have been recycling centre field, five metres from their try line. That is my view anyhow. And it just seemed to me to be indicative of a lack of belief or mental strength which seems to pop up at regular intervals across the park.

I'm not trying to be negative, I just want the team to perform to their potential.
Ok had another look. At the point Thompstone drops the ball there are no defenders in front of him because Wyles has stepped wide. The cover defence is converging on Betham and the supporting player. Betham has passed into the space, which is what you want him to do. Unfortunately Thompstone has decided to drift off the pass so is going out rather than in. IMHO of course. The point is Betham had the ball in his hands for about 2 seconds and has to make a decision. If he held on and was caught the world and his dog would have been complaining he didn't pass!

I'm not sure how you can extrapolate that to a lack of belief. Thompstone takes a slightly different line with Betham following his pass, one or other would most likely have scored in the corner. Might show a lack of understanding of each others decision making.

h's dad
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Re: Bring on Sarries! - Teams Up

Post by h's dad » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:01 pm

MrPartridge wrote:


MrPartridge wrote:
Finding it hard to concur with some that it was a good performance. Maybe better than last few visits to AP and Glasgow, but they were in control from the starts and we never looked like winning.

The negatives: starting forwards didn't front up. Not to reignite the No 8 debate but we desperately need a ball carrier. I also feel Cole and Marcos (great servants) are on the wane: certainly no front row dominance or decent carriers from either.




Or were we expecting two class props to do all the scummaging - A lightweight hooker, second rows without much grunt and lightweight back row players might just be a factor. We saw what Cole did to the Aussie pack in the summer.
Mol2 I think you make a good point. Cole always better of late playing for England than Tigers? Playing against better players but with better players. I'm not writing him off, but he's not been anywhere near his international form for us over the last 12 months. Why?
I think mol2 answered your question before you asked it MrP.
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Grumpy of Crumbie
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Re: Bring on Sarries! - Teams Up

Post by Grumpy of Crumbie » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:03 pm

I don't think we played that badly but we never looked like winning. I find that the most difficult thing to deal with coupled with the fact that I'm yet to be convinced that this squad is good enough to compete against the top sides in Europe.

The frustration from the weekend is that everyone knows how Sarries are going to play and yet we don't seem to be able to challenge that. I don't know if that's coaching, individuals going off piste or that Sarries are just too good.

We can all criticize referees and commentators but actually I thought Dallaglio made a lot of sense when he highlighted the difference in the quality of the kicking game, Tigers failure at the set piece, the lack of support for our ball carriers and the fact that Sarries often only commit one or two at the breakdown. He did acknowledge how difficult Sarries make it for the opposition to compete in these areas.

The majority of these issues are within our gift to resolve assuming we have the quality of players to execute. Sarries approach to the breakdown is for the coaches to see as an opportunity.

There's no dispute that Sarries are at the top of their game at the moment but I want that feeling back that on our day we are capable of beating anybody home or away. I can never accept any kind of defeat as a positive especially when there are so many areas to be improved upon.

The next two months are key for me and we have to start turning out consistent, better quality performances but most of all winning.
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Re: Bring on Sarries! - Teams Up

Post by ourla » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:53 pm

kend wrote:Ok had another look. At the point Thompstone drops the ball there are no defenders in front of him because Wyles has stepped wide. The cover defence is converging on Betham and the supporting player. Betham has passed into the space, which is what you want him to do. Unfortunately Thompstone has decided to drift off the pass so is going out rather than in. IMHO of course. The point is Betham had the ball in his hands for about 2 seconds and has to make a decision. If he held on and was caught the world and his dog would have been complaining he didn't pass!
We will have to disagree on how we perceive the situation but just to say this... I want players to draw defenders in before they pass and/or put out makeable passes. Betham did neither. I would rather take the tackle and recycle than knock on. Betham was flying towards the try line with support players with him. It is the sort of an opportunity I would expect us to nail against any team but away against Sarries it's got to be taken.
kend wrote:I'm not sure how you can extrapolate that to a lack of belief. Thompstone takes a slightly different line with Betham following his pass, one or other would most likely have scored in the corner. Might show a lack of understanding of each others decision making.
You seem to be quite comfortable with the scenario and just put it down to one of those things. Unfortunately it is one of a whole series of incidents through the season. I am trying to figure out why. I think just metaphorically shrugging the shoulders isn't going to help us fix the issues and bridge the gap. It was a guilt edged opportunity which we put down.
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ourla
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Re: Bring on Sarries! - Teams Up

Post by ourla » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:22 am

Just because it am such a geek. I've just checked the footage again. Go frame by frame at 4.45 & 4.46 on the match clock. The only defender in front of Betham is Goode (white sleeves). No 11 is trying to get back but not close enough to tackle. Jack Roberts is tracking Betham and just ahead of a Sarries player. Thompstone is miles away and has one defender in front and two just behind. In fact by the time the ball is half way to Thompstone, Goode is on his :censored: and Betham has a clear run to the line. At worst he could have waited a split second drawing Goode into him and had an easy short pass to Roberts for a walk in. It's criminal, sorry.
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Re: Bring on Sarries! - Teams Up

Post by G.K » Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:51 am

Betham passed too early, simple as that. Opportunity lost.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

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