Bring on Sarries! - Teams Up

[BFG]

First time poster and tigers season ticket holder!

I think first of all we have to give credit to a sarries team that are at the moment quite exceptional and can see them dominating for a good few years to come.

Something I've noticed over the past few years is that we lack intensity for 80 minutes, for every game of the season. All too often do we (whether personnel changes or not) get going in the last quarter of the game often when it is too late, or we bring our best game in one off situations as in last week against Racing.

Our kicking game has been weak for sometime now, most of the time finding the opposition player only to put ourselves in worse a position than when the ball left our hands. We very rarely chase the ball down either (with the exception of Betham and Vieanu at times) and put any pressure back on.

Owen Williams, sorry not good enough as a 10 and not convinced he makes a good 12 either. Freddie yes a lose canon but I'd take that for someone that can land that touch of creativity and generate momentum in a game. Fred needs to start and be our established 10.

Going to get shot down for this I guess, but Ben Youngs! Overrated in my opinion these days, predictable, slow ball and tactically inept. Maybe one of the best box kickers in the business but we need more from our scrum half, Sam Harrison (like Freddie) makes things happen and must start. Bens been a great servant to the club but time to move on Imo.

Thought yesterday Betham, McCafrey and Kitchener had good games. Kitchener is so underrated Imo, the guy is a man mountain and quick. I'd like to see Catchpole get some more game time too.

Flashes of good play yesterday, need to convert that to 80 minutes of intense rugby.

Welcome, good thought provoking post.
On Ben Youngs, behind a dominant pack he is one of the best scrum halves around, but when it's hard going up front he struggles in my opinion.
On the flip side Sam Harrison is a proper rugby player in my opinion, his service is as good as anyone and on the back foot he shirks nothing, I also thought Sam was adding to his game with game time recently starting to make more breaks and his kicking is very underrated, Leicester need to build a team around this man in my opinion, a player for all occasions and if Leicester are not able to dominate up front any longer this man could be crucial to them playing a quicker and wider game.
Up front I'd much prefer Kitchener at 6 rather then when Leicester put Fitzgerald there to be honest, the two are the wrong way around when playing together as they have been.
Trim down a bit and Kitchener could be a higher class 6 then lock.
Leicester need to sign a world class lock in my view, Etzebeth or someone of that ilk.

[drc_007]

From reading previous posts i read that the big difference between Sarries and Tigers is the standard of coaching, I think this is spot on, the McCall, Sanderson and Gustard team before he went to England are world class, Saracens are a well drilled unit who have a game plan and stick to it, each player knows the roll they have to play and the defensive structure is outstanding, tigers on the other hand look clueless and look lost for large parts of the game, the set piece crumbles under pressure, a kicking game that offers nothing accept more pressure, Tigers do have a talented squad with quality players but behind the scenes the coaching seems sub standard, yesterday would have been a cricket score if Sarries had kept on it for the full 80 minutes, looks like the LV cup is our best shout for silverware this year!!!

The forwards have been on the wane for a while, the set-piece is not as robust as it should be, and they act as individuals at the breakdown both in defence and attack. They also seem to seem to lack fire at times. I'm sure this impacts on the half-backs.

[jgriffin]

Am so tempted to write a template for posts on here, so many one-note trumpet solos. Then some could just post "No 4" or "no 7", doom posts by number.
One has to go back to the days of the (then) much derided Flood and co for the remnants of the 'never-say-die' collective effort, but then many players were. as Mrs G puts it, 'old skool'. Some of them would be permanently suspended (e.g. Julian)! In those days sides were unable to buy a XXIII of internationals, they had to grow them, and many were notorious hard cases who'd had to start in the pre-pro days.
Times have changed, rugby now has the 'haves' with £££ all over the place, and the 'have nots'. Tigers, bit like Stains, are neither in the 'haves' but nowhere near the others. Our league positions reflect access to finance IMO (except Briz, who were knackered by the qualification system).
Thus I am not surprised we are where we are, and am far less likely to wake up shouting 'Sack Cockers/Mauger' in best Father Ted mode, than some here.

[Southerntiger]

Am so tempted to write a template for posts on here, so many one-note trumpet solos. Then some could just post "No 4" or "no 7", doom posts by number.
One has to go back to the days of the (then) much derided Flood and co for the remnants of the 'never-say-die' collective effort, but then many players were. as Mrs G puts it, 'old skool'. Some of them would be permanently suspended (e.g. Julian)! In those days sides were unable to buy a XXIII of internationals, they had to grow them, and many were notorious hard cases who'd had to start in the pre-pro days.
Times have changed, rugby now has the 'haves' with £££ all over the place, and the 'have nots'. Tigers, bit like Stains, are neither in the 'haves' but nowhere near the others. Our league positions reflect access to finance IMO (except Briz, who were knackered by the qualification system).
Thus I am not surprised we are where we are, and am far less likely to wake up shouting 'Sack Cockers/Mauger' in best Father Ted mode, than some here.

You are hilarious, you thought we were going to win a trophy 8 weeks ago and now we won't becauae of our finances.

You are worse than a politician. Change your story to support Cockers in any way that is needed every week and

[Tigerbeat]

Just watching London Irish and the commentators are praising the defennce and attack. The coach appears to be one Brendan Venter.
He must be creditted with the platform that he has been part of laying at Saracens.

[Soggypitch]

Am so tempted to write a template for posts on here, so many one-note trumpet solos. Then some could just post "No 4" or "no 7", doom posts by number.
One has to go back to the days of the (then) much derided Flood and co for the remnants of the 'never-say-die' collective effort, but then many players were. as Mrs G puts it, 'old skool'. Some of them would be permanently suspended (e.g. Julian)! In those days sides were unable to buy a XXIII of internationals, they had to grow them, and many were notorious hard cases who'd had to start in the pre-pro days.
Times have changed, rugby now has the 'haves' with £££ all over the place, and the 'have nots'. Tigers, bit like Stains, are neither in the 'haves' but nowhere near the others. Our league positions reflect access to finance IMO (except Briz, who were knackered by the qualification system).
Thus I am not surprised we are where we are, and am far less likely to wake up shouting 'Sack Cockers/Mauger' in best Father Ted mode, than some here.

You can make as many excuses as you like, and I have never said sack the coaches/DOR, BUT I defy you to say Sarries are not a better coached team than Leicester at present. More money or not!

[tigercaspian]

Am so tempted to write a template for posts on here, so many one-note trumpet solos. Then some could just post "No 4" or "no 7", doom posts by number.
One has to go back to the days of the (then) much derided Flood and co for the remnants of the 'never-say-die' collective effort, but then many players were. as Mrs G puts it, 'old skool'. Some of them would be permanently suspended (e.g. Julian)! In those days sides were unable to buy a XXIII of internationals, they had to grow them, and many were notorious hard cases who'd had to start in the pre-pro days.
Times have changed, rugby now has the 'haves' with £££ all over the place, and the 'have nots'. Tigers, bit like Stains, are neither in the 'haves' but nowhere near the others. Our league positions reflect access to finance IMO (except Briz, who were knackered by the qualification system).
Thus I am not surprised we are where we are, and am far less likely to wake up shouting 'Sack Cockers/Mauger' in best Father Ted mode, than some here.

You are hilarious, you thought we were going to win a trophy 8 weeks ago and now we won't becauae of our finances.

You are worse than a politician. Change your story to support Cockers in any way that is needed every week and

I've reread jg's post and I can't see anything about winning a trophy or actively supporting Cockers ?
What am I missing ? Should I see a doctor ?? Should I go to Specsavers???

[Old Hob]

We know we are playing a top side so opportunities are going to be rare yet Slater does things like give away an obvious penalty by dragging Hamilton's arm when they are the only two high in the air at a lineout; as if no-one would see!!!! Stupid, amateurish and taking all the pressure off Saracens instantly.

Clearly missed the similar line out contact on Tigers jumpers then, which was no better/worse than Slater's but not given by officials - put down to competition I believe - fine lines. Like many other instances by Sarries, blocking, high tackles, offsides, side entries, blatant knock ons all went pretty much unpunished. We weren't innocent but we were pinged far more often for similar offences.



To target Slater for one line out indiscretion is pathetic IMO.

So, your answer is :"Sir, Sir, those other boys ae doing it Sir"

I target Slater's idiocy because that is under our control; the referee and the opposition's antics are not.

[jgriffin]

Thanks Tigercaspian. I think Southerngriper has got his target mixed up with someone else, and I got the upchuck by accident. Just to set the record straight from previous posts of mine (which are checkable) -
1 out of the EC group - unequivocal NO
2 trophy - never mentioned it, otherwise getting into playoffs will be a success, the gripe about finance relates to buying success, but we are not top 2 material this season
3 have stated that the buck stops with the Head Coach (AM) but if the Board dismiss Cockers as collateral damage, so be it. I most certainly do not defend Cockers at any cost, but have noted he bailed us out twice and has won more than Baxter for one. I do not have any confidence that AM would be any better as DOR, and we would still need a HC then. as well as a defence coach.
NB this is the current situation at Chiefs where the buck has recently stopped at coach level
4 Sarries by their fans admission have taken several seasons to bed in what is essentially a SA system with bells on, and have survived the loss of their best playmaker (Hodgson). Fazlet is a much better player now than he ever was, but is still not any more than the best of a sorry bunch of 10s.

[Soggypitch]

JG I'm glad that unlike ellis9 you do not think Farrell is rubbish, even if you do damn him with faint praise.
Cockers would love OF at Leicester (as would 99% of fans), he's the epitome of a Tigers player; committed, skilful, loyal, aggressive, cussed - all of which describes a traditional Leicester player. The problem now is we don't have anywhere near enough players with that character or skill set.

And although I have never said, sack the coaches/DOR, I cannot deny the obvious truth that Sarries are better coached than Leicester currently - can you seriously?

[jgriffin]

I would love to see Fazlet here and said that when Ford was legging it (genuinely don't see Ford as that good). I am happy with OW and Fred though.
Fazlet was never as good as Charlie as an attacking 10, has improved a lot IMO, still too snidey with the late stuff, but is better than Cipriani (kicking), Fred (consistency),and anyone else currently out there for England and in the 6N apart from Sexton IMO.
Sarries are cuurently at the top of their game, having developed over several seasons from being mid-table and flakey to having a very well-ingrained very SA game plan and some inspired individuals (e.g. Goode, Brits). We are currently on a rollercoaster ride; I suspect AM of being overambitious, I worry about conditioning (too much aerobic emphasis this summer, documented on LTTV), and I 'feel' that this is a defining season for the Board. I would not be surprised to see a DOR/coaching clearout if we fail to make top 4 and continue to be flakey, with Cockers kicked upstairs and possibly AM let go. That's pro sport.

[Soggypitch]

I would love to see Fazlet here and said that when Ford was legging it (genuinely don't see Ford as that good). I am happy with OW and Fred though.
Fazlet was never as good as Charlie as an attacking 10, has improved a lot IMO, still too snidey with the late stuff, but is better than Cipriani (kicking), Fred (consistency),and anyone else currently out there for England and in the 6N apart from Sexton IMO.
Sarries are cuurently at the top of their game, having developed over several seasons from being mid-table and flakey to having a very well-ingrained very SA game plan and some inspired individuals (e.g. Goode, Brits). We are currently on a rollercoaster ride; I suspect AM of being overambitious, I worry about conditioning (too much aerobic emphasis this summer, documented on LTTV), and I 'feel' that this is a defining season for the Board. I would not be surprised to see a DOR/coaching clearout if we fail to make top 4 and continue to be flakey, with Cockers kicked upstairs and possibly AM let go. That's pro sport.

That's a yes then?!

[jgriffin]

I thought I was equivocating superbly.

[G.K]

Went pretty much as expected. Been obvious for some that Tigers are now a pretty mediocre team. Saffas completely out played Tigers in every department and out thought them at pretty much every turn. Men against boys really.

Turned over 5 or 6 times on the 5 metre line? Totally clueless. Saffas easily dealt with Tigers attacks. If it hadn't have been for one bit of vision from Burns and a good finish from Catchpole Tigers would have only got 3 points.

Oh and Ben Youngs has completely lost the plot. Slow, indecisive and Goode was waiting for his box kick every time. What's with the shuffle thing before the pass?

The real issues is I only see things getting worse next year.

[ellis9]

The same Ben Youngs who plays for and is first choice for England?!

He was not slow yesterday!