Does Cockers get the boot if we get smashed again this week

[Cagey Tiger]

1. Agreed. However, Sarries are being held up left, right and centre as what we should aspire to. When Brendan Venter arrived, he put in place the defensive system and squad rotation. The club recognised that it would take a while to come to full fruition and that they probably would not win trophies for a few seasons. They were patient and have been rewarded after a number of seasons. Tiger employed Mauger last season and a significant overhaul of our playing style has taken place. However, "we" are not prepared to wait more than a season. Nuff said.

I'm not sure if it is "nuff said". Are you seriously telling me you will wait "a few seasons" for success? If not "a few seasons", how long? Yes. Certainly a more than one, max 3. Are you seriously telling me that after the just one season and a bit that this setup has been in place, we have to win a trophy or its off with their heads?

2. Maybe, maybe not. Getting someone new does NOT guarantee improvement, see Meyer and Loffreda.

That's the cowards way out. Do nothing. Not saying do nothing. Querying the merits of change now vs at end of season

Nothing is guaranteed, we know that. Stick with Cockers or not? Guarantees are none. That is not the question. See above.

3. As your assumptions that a change will improve things are highly questionable

Starter for 10. Explain to me why we ditched three 8's and didn't sign one? What's that go to do with this discussion? Nothing as far as I'm concerned.

you don't have any potential replacement with at least a decent track record to give hope that they will improve things, I would say that immediate change has little merit.

Give over, I could give you a dozen names. But I am not in the business of recruiting DORs Sacking yes, recruiting, no. Now there's a cop out. Our board is, they will have the names, the merits of those names, the likely availability of those names, etc.] Note the word "immediate". As I have stated on previous posts and in this reply, I am questioning making a change in coaching staff NOW, rather than at the end of the season. To justify changing now, it is more than reasonable to ask who might be available, now. Availability in mid-season is always more restricted. If you won't name names, I won't agree that now is a good time.

[Cagey Tiger]

Cagey Tiger said: "1. Agreed. However, Sarries are being held up left, right and centre as what we should aspire to. When Brendan Venter arrived, he put in place the defensive system and squad rotation. The club recognised that it would take a while to come to full fruition and that they probably would not win trophies for a few seasons. They were patient and have been rewarded after a number of seasons. Tiger employed Mauger last season and a significant overhaul of our playing style has taken place. However, "we" are not prepared to wait more than a season. Nuff said. "

Saracens were a mid/bottom half of the table team in a rented ground with feeble attendance figures. 10 blokes in Fezzes and a rat chewed camel mascot if they were lucky. Their expectations were low.
Our expectations are, rightly, different.

Why should our expectations of how quickly a new system can be put in place be any different?

[ourla]

Whether on not it is a good thing for the playing stability to sack DOR or coaches there is one simple fact I wish to point out. These guys like players are on contracts. If you sack them you still have to pay them. To bring in another (whoever that may be) one assumes is an expensive business.

I seem to recall a recent communication from the club saying there was nigh on a half million pound operating loss last year. Where is all this money going to come from......or should we be seeking a buyout from a multi million are and go down the Saracens route altogether?

It's a factor but I doubt it's an overriding one.

[ourla]

Note the word "immediate". As I have stated on previous posts and in this reply, I am questioning making a change in coaching staff NOW, rather than at the end of the season. To justify changing now, it is more than reasonable to ask who might be available, now. Availability in mid-season is always more restricted. If you won't name names, I won't agree that now is a good time.

Like you are going to agree with me anyway. But here's three that I believe are available afaik: Heyneke Meyer, Philippe Saint-André, Nick Mallett.

Now will answer my question:

Explain to me why we ditched three 8's and didn't sign one?

[Iain]

You're suggesting Heyneke Meyer as a replacement? The man who Cockers replaced with the team in a bad spot and turned around to be champions in the same season? Seriously?

[ourla]

You're suggesting Heyneke Meyer as a replacement? The man who Cockers replaced with the team in a bad spot and turned around to be champions in the same season? Seriously?

He was here for six months and 17 matches - results were good even if some didn't like the style of play.
His record before and since in club rugby was excellent.
He is old style so Tigers fans would love him.

What's not to like?

[Iain]

Oh. You actually are.

I'm done.

[castrofan]

I really don`t want Cockers to go. Yes there are problems.... but maybe it`s a confidence thing from all of the endless knocking the team and coaches get on here, facebook and worst of all from radio Leicester (No idea how Cockers keeps his temper with them !!) . For me he IS Tigers... I love listening to his interviews.. (and his dry sense of humour) I don`t want some grey man taking over....
I don`t feel though, that since his "sin binning" he has enjoyed the role. Watching Steve Diamond running up and down the steps cajoling his team was like watching Cockers before he had his wrists slapped. Perhaps he should be "released" from his seat alongside Aaron to run around endangering his blood pressure once again.
I`m glad that I`m not mum to any of the players though .... I`d be after a lot of you doom mongers with my handbag !
We have seen glimpses of wonderful play which can only be a confidence thing.... let`s please give it until at least Christmas before asking for people to be put out of work !

[ourla]

Oh. You actually are.

I'm done.

I was asked to give some names of coaches with a good track record that are available immediately. I did that. There are also plenty of coaches that may consider leaving their current position if asked. The relative merits of any new DoR is of course open to discussion and debate. But the fact of the matter is that there are alternatives. Just because one of them (an ex SA national team coach to boot) doesn't tickle your fancy does not kill the argument that alternatives are available.

And bear in mind when Eddie Jones took over England there were a lot of naysayers. I doubt many people were touting Mark McCall as the guy who is going to get them a full trophy cabinet when he took over at Sarries. The next big thing isn't always that obvious.

I'm not calling for Cockers head particularly but I'm not a closed mind to other options.

[BFG]

Oh. You actually are.

I'm done.

I was asked to give some names of coaches with a good track record that are available immediately. I did that. There are also plenty of coaches that may consider leaving their current position if asked. The relative merits of any new DoR is of course open to discussion and debate. But the fact of the matter is that there are alternatives. Just because one of them (an ex SA national team coach to boot) doesn't tickle your fancy does not kill the argument that alternatives are available.

And bear in mind when Eddie Jones took over England there were a lot of naysayers. I doubt many people were touting Mark McCall as the guy who is going to get them a full trophy cabinet when he took over at Sarries. The next big thing isn't always that obvious.

I'm not calling for Cockers head particularly but I'm not a closed mind to other options.

This.
This type of title seems to have become an annual event.
Something fresh and new is needed in my opinion, who or what is for the experts to decide, if they have the knowledge or the bottle for it, otherwise see you same time next year on a similarly titled post.

[4071]

Cagey Tiger said: "1. Agreed. However, Sarries are being held up left, right and centre as what we should aspire to. When Brendan Venter arrived, he put in place the defensive system and squad rotation. The club recognised that it would take a while to come to full fruition and that they probably would not win trophies for a few seasons. They were patient and have been rewarded after a number of seasons. Tiger employed Mauger last season and a significant overhaul of our playing style has taken place. However, "we" are not prepared to wait more than a season. Nuff said. "

Saracens were a mid/bottom half of the table team in a rented ground with feeble attendance figures. 10 blokes in Fezzes and a rat chewed camel mascot if they were lucky. Their expectations were low.
Our expectations are, rightly, different.

Why should our expectations of how quickly a new system can be put in place be any different?

Venter arrived in 2009 and that same season they reached their first Premiership final. They won their first title the following year.

They went on to improve in Europe from not qualifying, to group stage exit, to QF, then SF, then final, before dropping back to reach the SF before they finally picked up their first title last season. The same year they picked up their third Premiership title in six seasons.


I'd be willing to wait for a single season to see the fruits of a change, like Sarries did. And to actually see the signs of improvement rather than regression would make any wait worthwhile.

Leicester have been declining for quite some time. Slowly declining, but declining nonetheless. Every season exactly the same reasons/excuses are trotted out - the League is so much more competitive/we can't compete with the big spending clubs - and every season the same people say that we shouldn't have a knee-jerk response and make changes mid-season. We need to be patient. We need to wait and see if the latest bit of deckchair rearranging saves the ship.


Leicester losing their Leicester-ness is not down to other clubs having sugar daddies, it's not down to whoever the latest coaching scapegoat is and it's not a sudden development. It's been evident to increasing numbers of fans for some time, it's been utterly predictable, and it's really only going to get worse until changes - significant changes - are made.

I'm a long-time fan; I can sit and wait it out with the happy clappers, watching the declining performances and results for season after season. But I assure you, only change will bring sustained improvements.

[MikeR]

Well said 4071 . Its not just the 1st Team that has declined , the lack of decent players being produced by the Academy and then growing into 1st team players is a great concern . 6 or 7 years ago we had Ben Youngs hammering on the door to get in the 1st team , then the likes of Ford , Tuilagi and 12trees - I don't see prospects like that these days . A few days ago the England U20 squad was announced - hardly a Tiger in sight .
There's a lot wrong - root and branch change required !

[Southerntiger]

Genuine question - What is the obsession of promoting coaches from within?

Why limit the search to people who have been involved with Tigers? Surely it just limits the pool of potential coaching talent available and limits change at all costs?

I feel Tigers have a lot of similarities with volunteering organisations - impossible to change, people fight change at all costs and a load of old farts just want to turn up every week and have things in exactly the same format they have been for years.

Can't understand it. Seems backward and reduces the chances of success.

[LE18]

I would suggest the reason why we didn't replace 3 no 8s was due to a shortage of cash, we made a massive loss last year and probably had to make cut backs. I heard a rumour, and it was only a rumour but I think it was reliable, that De Villiers was on a very large monthly salary for his 6 months contract, which would go a long way towards explaining part of this loss and why he was still around at the end of the season!

Now to our other problems, don't think the club could afford to terminate either Cockers or Maugs contracts.

I think that we need to pick our beefiest and sizeable pack, to compete, I would suggest, no room for sentimental selections like Thacker, so start with Ayerza, Bateman, Muli, Kitch (capt), Barrow, McCaffrey, Slater, O'connor, that would win us some ball and hopefully bully the opposition. Bench, Genge, Youngs, Cole,Fitzgerald, Evans.

For the backs we need to cut out the long flat ball pass, this is too easy to intercept, as demonstrated by the number of interception tries we have given away, pull the ball back (a la Cipriani,) only use the flat ball for short passes to a man running through a gap, not over the top etc. Must find some speed!
My backs would be Harrison, Burns, JPP, Toomua, Betham,Thompstone, Vianue, with bench Youngs, Williams, Tait.

This, to some, would be a slightly controversial selection, but we have to win some ball and retain it, then get quick ball to our backs and hopefully tackle, tackle tackle!

[Soggypitch]

I agree with you 4071 but what changes would you like to see, and would you advocate wholesale changes mid season?

As I said on the Glasgow thread, I'm hoping Peter Toms is seeing a number of senior players independently to try and ascertain what the real problems are....then a considered decision can be made.

If there is bad blood between Cockers and Mauger (no idea if true or not) something needs to be done;if Cockers coaching is not up to scratch or his man management, again we need to know and deal with it.

I'm just hoping that PT is really onto it,as I don't have faith in Simon Cohen.