What's up with Ayerza

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Alatoruk
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What's up with Ayerza

Post by Alatoruk »

Penalty after penalty, scrum always collapsing on his side. Genge comes on and srum starts moving forward. This isn't the first game this season he seems to be struggling with, or is it just me?
Doghashadhisday
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by Doghashadhisday »

Alatoruk wrote:Penalty after penalty, scrum always collapsing on his side. Genge comes on and srum starts moving forward. This isn't the first game this season he seems to be struggling with, or is it just me?
Here we go. Have a go without actually looking at what he does. Genge is being mentored by Ayerza and Marcos will admit he will overtake him but at the moment Genge is not ready to be number one. He doesnt know when to hold on to the ball and butchered 2 chances in the previous game and nearly resulted in the opposition breaking away and its not the first time his ball retention has let us down. Did you actually watch the work Marcos put in, in the driving mauls? He was immense. The ref was taking turns to penalise Marcos and his opposite number. Also Marcos scrummages low so occasionally he can be pulled or forced down.
Marcos does the hard yards and Genge comes on against a tiring pack, I think it is great for the Tigers. If Genge learns from Marcos then we will have another legend in the making but dont knock Marcos, actually watch the immense work he puts in.
Old Hob
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by Old Hob »

I do think Marcos' feet went a couple of times after that extraordinary burst of nuts weather (Rain, sunshine and lightning all at the same time) and the grass got greasy.
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Doghashadhisday
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by Doghashadhisday »

Also watch the effort by Marcos in the Tom Youngs try
ourla
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by ourla »

Alatoruk wrote:Penalty after penalty, scrum always collapsing on his side. Genge comes on and srum starts moving forward. This isn't the first game this season he seems to be struggling with, or is it just me?
It's just you.
strawclearer
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by strawclearer »

In the Crumbie, we were calling which way each penalty would go before the scrum formed. Referees seem to be only concerned with parity rather than getting it right.
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BengalTiger
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by BengalTiger »

The Bath prop (Thomas)was hinging at the hip and pulling Marcos down, not taking the push, it was clever as it made it look like Ayerza was at fault it fooled the ref, not hard to do with most refs!
drc_007
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by drc_007 »

Fair or not, Ayerza was penalised 4 times effectively giving Bath an easy exit. Refs do seem to laying the blame on him at the moment, perhaps he needs to not have his feet has far back to improve stability even if it does reduce his effectiveness as a destructive scrummager?
Noddy555
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by Noddy555 »

I haven't noticed anything wrong with Marcus but fans have to remember that he is now into his thirties and time marches on etc etc. Perhaps this was another reason why we made such a good investment in Ellis Genge who I believe can play open or blind sided prop?
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by jgriffin »

BengalTiger wrote:The Bath prop (Thomas)was hinging at the hip and pulling Marcos down, not taking the push, it was clever as it made it look like Ayerza was at fault it fooled the ref, not hard to do with most refs!
He was also changing his bind by tearing Marcos' shirt and purple undershirt as he pulled in, around and down. This happened three times AFAIK. We were level for two completely identical scrums with identical behaviour (Thomas pulls down, hinges and turns in). On the first, Thomas was pinged, on the second Marcos. Where I was in the Crumbie there was just a groan of 'what?'. IMO no ref in the AP knows what is going on, and the people with a clear view - the TJ/AR - seem as clueless. Really need an overhead cam for players like Marler, to see their angle when packing down, and a scrum ref on the refs blindside (both sides in the case of most AP refs).
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mightymouse
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by mightymouse »

Thomas continually pulled him down until the ref was informed by the terrace what was going on, and then he started his yo yo decisions. Tightheads pull good looseheads down because the are scared about what is going to happen to them if they don't. There are few better than Marcos. Sadly most refs have never played in the front row and haven't got a scooby about what is going on. When he didn't pull down and marcos was finally allowed to shove Thomas then caved inwards and Marcos was penalised because Thomas was to weak to hold him.

When Genge came on the referee was on top of Thomas telling him not to pull down because fortunately he had finally taken heed of what the terrace were telling him and sure enough he justly got his head shoved up his rear end. This would have happened a lot earlier if the ref had done his job correctly.

Don't get me wrong... Genge is a very fine prop for his age and I think he will be brilliant in the future hopefully for Tigers and indeed England for many years .... but he is not quite Marcos standard yet ..even the old version.
TomWeston
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by TomWeston »

mightymouse wrote:Thomas continually pulled him down until the ref was informed by the terrace what was going on, and then he started his yo yo decisions. Tightheads pull good looseheads down because the are scared about what is going to happen to them if they don't. There are few better than Marcos. Sadly most refs have never played in the front row and haven't got a scooby about what is going on. When he didn't pull down and marcos was finally allowed to shove Thomas then caved inwards and Marcos was penalised because Thomas was to weak to hold him.

When Genge came on the referee was on top of Thomas telling him not to pull down because fortunately he had finally taken heed of what the terrace were telling him and sure enough he justly got his head shoved up his rear end. This would have happened a lot earlier if the ref had done his job correctly.

Don't get me wrong... Genge is a very fine prop for his age and I think he will be brilliant in the future hopefully for Tigers and indeed England for many years .... but he is not quite Marcos standard yet ..even the old version.
There speaks someone who knows a thing or two about front row play. Presumably your board moniker is in homage to the other 'mighty mouse'.
Roly
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by Roly »

mightymouse wrote:Thomas continually pulled him down until the ref was informed by the terrace what was going on, and then he started his yo yo decisions. Tightheads pull good looseheads down because the are scared about what is going to happen to them if they don't. There are few better than Marcos. Sadly most refs have never played in the front row and haven't got a scooby about what is going on. When he didn't pull down and marcos was finally allowed to shove Thomas then caved inwards and Marcos was penalised because Thomas was to weak to hold him.

When Genge came on the referee was on top of Thomas telling him not to pull down because fortunately he had finally taken heed of what the terrace were telling him and sure enough he justly got his head shoved up his rear end. This would have happened a lot earlier if the ref had done his job correctly.

Don't get me wrong... Genge is a very fine prop for his age and I think he will be brilliant in the future hopefully for Tigers and indeed England for many years .... but he is not quite Marcos standard yet ..even the old version.
I know very little about forward play in general, but to me it did seem as though the referee was penalising the front row on a 'now its your turn' basis.

I will say that I have no doubt Marcos is working very hard and that sometimes this goes under the radar. but if the only one who's noticing you is the referee, then you've got problems.
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mightymouse
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by mightymouse »

Indeed my hero is the greatest "mouse" of all, a fourteen and a half stone midget who was so "mighty" he not only tore all opposition to shreds including the mighty Boks, but on one occasion did it with a broken leg ..... now that is what I call ..hard! I was brought up on a diet of McLauchlan Madsen Carmichael Brown and McHarg, commentated on by Mclaren ... who wouldn't want to take up rugby?

Back to Marcos .. it's not a props fault that he is so good that the opposition have to cheat to compete .. it is the fault of the referees who cannot be bothered to study the science of scrummaging and know who is causing the problem. It's a bit like a Cricket umpire saying I cannot be bothered to understand the intricacies of the LBW law when a leg spin bowler is bowling, it's too complicated, I'll just give out or not out on a alternating basis on every appeal.
Norfolk & Goode
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Re: What's up with Ayerza

Post by Norfolk & Goode »

mightymouse wrote:it's not a props fault that he is so good that the opposition have to cheat to compete .. it is the fault of the referees
Surely the blame clearly lies with the cheats in the first place not the people who administer the law?

To be fair to Garner, he came round the offending side to get a better view and made the call, but right or wrong he WAS bothered to attempt to understand what was going on. Marcos was initially unfairly penalised, but on at least 2 occasions he was rightfully penalised in my view.

Scrums are highly complex areas these days, refs have far too many responsibilities at a scrum for one person, it's fine watching from the terraces through beer goggles, but when a ref is also looking at a dozen other issues all at once, it's not surprising they miss a few, particularly those that conspire to cheat.

Have one AR 5m on the blindside and that'll help cure a lot of the cheating.
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