Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

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BengalTiger
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by BengalTiger »

It is an interesting dynamic, organic sustainability or large injection of cash from a single individual/group.
But looking at the bigger picture to grow the game it needs not only to hold onto the audience it has now but to grow it. That means improving the spectacle, I do not mean 5 tries to 4 tries every game but a game that can be understood by everyone, many of the games in the premiership are low on quality, though Tigers games are not short on tension this is not the same as excitement!
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by ourla »

BengalTiger wrote:It is an interesting dynamic, organic sustainability or large injection of cash from a single individual/group.
But looking at the bigger picture to grow the game it needs not only to hold onto the audience it has now but to grow it. That means improving the spectacle, I do not mean 5 tries to 4 tries every game but a game that can be understood by everyone, many of the games in the premiership are low on quality, though Tigers games are not short on tension this is not the same as excitement!
First off, if you try to run before you can walk or jog it rarely works. It usually unravels as quick as it was built. Growth needs to be in steps, rather than leaps. I am talking at a club level, at a league level and at a global level. There are plenty of examples of this.

Second, improving the spectacle. The rules of Rugby Union are intrinsically complicated. Most games are to be honest. But rugby is definitely not a game you can pick up in two minutes. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. What is a bad thing is lots of scrum resets, lots of ping pong kicking, long TMO delays. That is not to do away with any of things but merely to make sure they are curtailed as much as possible without getting rid of their usefulness.

I watch hardly any Pro12, Top14 or southern hemisphere club rugby so I've no idea how English Prem rugby compares. I think the quality is pretty good personally.
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by Roly »

h's dad wrote:
ellis9 wrote:God help Saracens if they stop winning trophies then. They hardly get anyone turn up now. If people stop going, they'll only have one man and his dog turn up!
You may want to discount their numbers because of their mercenary approach and discount packing of third party stadia but their headline numbers are pretty strong
ellis9 wrote:If any Tigers fans stop coming because we stop winning trophies, then they are not proper supporters, no matter what anyone says!
I'm sure there are a few. Others clearly think there are many. Perhaps others don't understand the concept of loyalty and think most are like them.
On the other hand, there are people who have served their country and fought alongside their friends and colleagues since 1988, continue to serve their country and thereby knock what most people define as loyalty into a cocked hat. They've also followed the team for 30 years (when they were able to do so).

I don't think many people who class themselves as fans or supporters would necessarily stop being so if the silverware dried up, but it would certainly give them ever increasing cause to question the way the club was being run, or the team managed.
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by Tigerbeat »

Gone are the days when the Clubs were being run as a Rugby Club. They are now a business with a lot of money invested in the sport from various sources. Tigers could do better....agreed, but they are one of the few clubs in the Premiership that are making a good turnover and still making a profit.
I seem to recall that Saracens are losing money as are some other clubs.
Whilst the Top Management may appear to missing some opportunities that seem obvious to you and I, they are maintaining a healthy balance sheet.
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Iain
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by Iain »

We're also one of the few in the upper echelons if the table whose business model is sustainable long term.

Saracens and Bath WILL dip when the investment dries up. Mark my words.
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by ourla »

Iain wrote:Saracens and Bath WILL dip when the investment dries up. Mark my words.
That very strongly made prediction holds no water unless you give a timescale. Are we talking 1, 5, 10 or 20 years - or something in between or beyond. Hopefully you can see why it's significant.
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by Iain »

It could be 30 years. It could be 18 months.

Their wealth is made on a sand foundation. It's good now, but that risk will always be there. When their wealthy backer gets bored / sells up to enjoy retirement / dies they will be in trouble.

I presume you mean that it could be in 50 years so it doesn't matter as it's so far ahead. Personally, I'd like to ensure that my grandchildren would still have a club to watch in 50 years, which we will with our model, undoubtedly. With Saracens, that's far less certain.
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by ourla »

Iain wrote:It could be 30 years. It could be 18 months.

Their wealth is made on a sand foundation. It's good now, but that risk will always be there. When their wealthy backer gets bored / sells up to enjoy retirement / dies they will be in trouble.

I presume you mean that it could be in 50 years so it doesn't matter as it's so far ahead. Personally, I'd like to ensure that my grandchildren would still have a club to watch in 50 years, which we will with our model, undoubtedly. With Saracens, that's far less certain.
As I thought your prediction is meaningless.
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by Iain »

That's your opinion. I think I have highlighted the meaning as clearly as I can.

At some point Saracens and Bath are in trouble. That could be rather imminent or if they're very lucky it could be fifty years. And when it happens, they will dip. As in not just out of the play off spots, but to face an existential crisis.
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by Cagey Tiger »

SIBARITE wrote: Local fans may attend matches but travelling supporters will not pay the extra expense to see a losing team.
Complete and utter rubbish. They may not be as many as for a successful team, but travel and pay a fair few will. And this is not based on my own, personal attendance habits.
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by jgriffin »

Iain wrote:That's your opinion. I think I have highlighted the meaning as clearly as I can.

At some point Saracens and Bath are in trouble. That could be rather imminent or if they're very lucky it could be fifty years. And when it happens, they will dip. As in not just out of the play off spots, but to face an existential crisis.
May I add to this that Wasps have a tradeable bond issue, annual return 6.5%, part based on a small line of companies and a big chunk of the real estate. This is even less viable than Saracens (for them a £60m deficit is pocket money for Rupert & Wray, but may not always be so) or Bath (Craig has realisable assets in the club structure although £5-10m losses are little to him). So for me, it is Wasps who are the more likely in the medium term to implode.
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by johnthegriff »

After twenty years of professional rugby the well funded Bath still do not have a proper ground, were they to be relegated it is debateable whether they would meet the criteria for promotion back to the Premiership. Saracens despite the forty odd million debt are actually developing a business and some good players, past criticism was justified but not now, as long as the money men don't disappear overnight they will be ok. Wasps with this strange bond funding that will mean repayment of about £35,000,000.00 in five years time approximately may be vulnerable but in the meantime they are playing good rugby. Tigers are being sensible whilst spending to the salary cap, fan growth may have been hit by three trophy less years coupled with the unexpected success of Leicester City but our seasonal average gate of more than 21,000 is far in excess of our rivals as is our annual turnover.
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by Hot_Charlie »

Tigerbeat wrote: I seem to recall that Saracens are losing money...
Diplomatic statement of the year! :smt003
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by jgriffin »

johnthegriff wrote:After twenty years of professional rugby the well funded Bath still do not have a proper ground, were they to be relegated it is debateable whether they would meet the criteria for promotion back to the Premiership. Saracens despite the forty odd million debt are actually developing a business and some good players, past criticism was justified but not now, as long as the money men don't disappear overnight they will be ok. Wasps with this strange bond funding that will mean repayment of about £35,000,000.00 in five years time approximately may be vulnerable but in the meantime they are playing good rugby. Tigers are being sensible whilst spending to the salary cap, fan growth may have been hit by three trophy less years coupled with the unexpected success of Leicester City but our seasonal average gate of more than 21,000 is far in excess of our rivals as is our annual turnover.
Saracens debt is increasing at about £4m pa, and there is still a question about who the heck is getting paid all that wage money (about £5m pa more than the current cap, so very well paid other employees). Nevertheless they are better off than Wasps who are subject to a huge gamble that is not covered by financial compensation i.e. if anything goes tits-up the whole facade coould crash. The stadium is 77% owned by the same owner as the team and subject to claim by its catering partner and Coventry Council. Given the nuclear arms race developing with the cap laxity it seems that we are OK but unable to compete fully, at least two (and three if Sale get more £££) will be fine as long as their sugar-daddies don't mind the losses, and that Wasps are by far the more vulnerable.
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Re: Simon Cohen's well chosen words ..............again

Post by Bowden Tiger »

Reading the variety of comments, it seems that the general opinion on our finances, is that our long term plans, and stepped improvements, is the right thing for us. I also believe that Saints are another club who seem to have a sustainable future, with their ground improvement carried out gradually. They have a solid, and increasing fan base, and are seemingly, no longer dependant on a big cash investor!
I also think that most agree that the lack of silverware, in the short term, is not an issue, but if it continues then there will be lower revenues. At that point decisions will have to be made on the direction that the team / coaches go in - success on the field is vital to our long term future.
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