Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

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Mersey Tiger
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Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by Mersey Tiger »

I watched the Newcastle v Leicester match yesterday, and I think I spotted a professional foul which was not picked up by the commentators, which had a significant impact on the game.
This was early in the second half when Tigers were awarded a penalty right under the Falcons’ posts. Ben Youngs decided to take a quick tap penalty and was held up on the line.
The issue that I would like to raise here is that (I think it was) Newcastle’s No.8 Ally Hogg at no point retreated behind the try line, and therefore had not retreated as required by the rules for such a tap penalty. Yet it was Hogg who was straight into tackling Ben Youngs, and preventing a try.
If JP Doyle had spotted this then there could have been the possibility of Hogg being given a Yellow Card for a professional foul, and perhaps a penalty try awarded.
But as things took place Hogg was behind Doyle, and so was not seen. This begs the question of whether the Assistant Referees should have spotted that he had not gone back behind the line – I presume that they would have been in line and would be looking to ensure all players had retreated. Or should not the Video Referee have spotted it and alerted Doyle accordingly? Is it not his responsibility to alert the referee to serious foul play?
If Tigers HAD got that try under the posts then the whole of the rest of the game would have been different.
Any views chaps and chappesses on this august Forum? :smt002
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Spicer
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by Spicer »

Probably. But honestly in the final two scrums of the match, where we were turned over, Newcastle should have been given two penalties. Tom Youngs's head came up both times. A penalty is easier than a drop goal when under pressure. I wouldn't analyse it, we were lucky to win.
ourla
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by ourla »

I think what Mersey Tiger is proposing is that at 15-10 with two tries on the board we'd have been much more comfortable and composed - and Falcons confidence may have taken a hit. And therefore we would have gone on to win the game more comfortably - the nail biting finish coming partly as a result of the penalty try not being given. He could be right but who knows. As it is...
Iain
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by Iain »

I've not seen it, but if it's as you described it should have been a penalty try yes.
JackFlashJonny
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by JackFlashJonny »

Yes MerseyTiger I agree and could not believe BT Sports didn't pick up on it either..I was shouting at my TV but they didn't seem to hear :smt003
MelChannerFan
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by MelChannerFan »

Also someone, I think the same person, stopped Ben from taking the penalty as quickly as he tried to.
johnthegriff
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by johnthegriff »

I commented at the time that Falcons had not gone back behind the line, at the very least the penalty should have been retaken. However we were lucky in the end to get the win, referees decisions can be debateable throughout any match but in the closing stages of a close game they assume extra significance.
We currently have two wins from three matches if this becomes three from four I will be reasonably content. I expect us to be in the top three by November, top two by Christmas and with a good chance of progressing in Europe. And Roly and Sibarite will have nothing but good things to say about Tigers and Cocker; I know I am an optimist so possibly I am wrong about this last bit.
Norfolk & Goode
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by Norfolk & Goode »

Spicer wrote:Tom Youngs's head came up both times
NOT a penalty offence! Dayglo, Bayfield and Goode also said it was a penalty offence, it is not!

Any front row player can pop up, and provided it is not dangerous (just a reset if it looks unstable, if he was driven up by his oppo, or he was trying to drive his oppo up, then it's a penalty), therefore the scrum may continue.

If on the other hand he releases his bind (which TY did not) then it is a penalty.
Coops
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by Coops »

It was no8 Hogg, and he sauntered back to the try line with his hands aloft suggesting that he wasn't interfering with play.

Normally the no9 would have taken the quick tap and ran directly into Hogg thereby enhancing the fact that he hadn't retreated, but we didn't in this case, for whatever reason. Quite regularly last season I witnessed the no9 passed into players who had not retreated and they were granted penalties.

Would a try have been scored? Maybe, on balance though, it was quite likely.
Hot_Charlie
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by Hot_Charlie »

3 pts would have been a better bet the the SH trying to push over against 3 or 4 tacklers.
sk 88
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by sk 88 »

Spicer wrote:Probably. But honestly in the final two scrums of the match, where we were turned over, Newcastle should have been given two penalties. Tom Youngs's head came up both times. A penalty is easier than a drop goal when under pressure. I wouldn't analyse it, we were lucky to win.

Neither were penalties against us, both should have been penalties for us.

See two images here:
1st scrum:
https://twitter.com/KeeneTiger/status/7 ... 5904252928

1) No 20 clearly unbounded, which is a penalty.
2) You can see the Newcastle tighthead's angle is practically parallel to the touchline and the back five (or rather the 4 still bound) are sweeping round the corner too. This is also a penalty to us.

2nd scrum:

https://twitter.com/KeeneTiger/status/7 ... 4903191553

Who is standing up in this scrum? Its clearly Newcastle's tighthead. And where is his right arm? Clearly not bound onto Genge.

Don't get dragged into BT's terrible and biased analysis. Newcastle were incredibly lucky not to get two yellow cards and had no case for a penalty from either of these scrums.
Goooooodeeeeeyyyyy!
Roly
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by Roly »

johnthegriff wrote:I commented at the time that Falcons had not gone back behind the line, at the very least the penalty should have been retaken. However we were lucky in the end to get the win, referees decisions can be debateable throughout any match but in the closing stages of a close game they assume extra significance.
We currently have two wins from three matches if this becomes three from four I will be reasonably content. I expect us to be in the top three by November, top two by Christmas and with a good chance of progressing in Europe. And Roly and Sibarite will have nothing but good things to say about Tigers and Cocker; I know I am an optimist so possibly I am wrong about this last bit.
Its not the only thing wrong, top two by Christmas? I'mpretty sure you're saying that tongue in cheek, but if you really believe it.....well.....

Back on topic.

I too thought there was a case to be answered for Hogg not retreating, but, on the other hand, Youngs elected to tap and go quickly (in a sense he didn't give Hogg the opportunity to retreat behind the line) and Youngs also elected to take the tap from behind JP Doyle, thus giving him no chance to put any lazy running into context.

I'm not surprised the touch judge on the west side of the pitch didn't see anything. He was a right porker and was probably still ambling back from the play on half way that had happened 5 minutes previously.
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.
Spicer
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Re: Should it have been a penalty try and a yellow card?

Post by Spicer »

sk 88 wrote:
Spicer wrote:Probably. But honestly in the final two scrums of the match, where we were turned over, Newcastle should have been given two penalties. Tom Youngs's head came up both times. A penalty is easier than a drop goal when under pressure. I wouldn't analyse it, we were lucky to win.

Neither were penalties against us, both should have been penalties for us.

See two images here:
1st scrum:
https://twitter.com/KeeneTiger/status/7 ... 5904252928

1) No 20 clearly unbounded, which is a penalty.
2) You can see the Newcastle tighthead's angle is practically parallel to the touchline and the back five (or rather the 4 still bound) are sweeping round the corner too. This is also a penalty to us.

2nd scrum:

https://twitter.com/KeeneTiger/status/7 ... 4903191553

Who is standing up in this scrum? Its clearly Newcastle's tighthead. And where is his right arm? Clearly not bound onto Genge.

Don't get dragged into BT's terrible and biased analysis. Newcastle were incredibly lucky not to get two yellow cards and had no case for a penalty from either of these scrums.
You are right. My bad. Can tell I was never a front rower.
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