Blaming the right person?

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ellis9
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Blaming the right person?

Post by ellis9 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:43 pm

There has been so many comments saying that Cockerill should be sacked, he has no clue and needs to be replaced.

There has been loads of people saying we are not playing well.

Firstly, individual mistakes cannot be blamed on any coach. Only the player who made the mistake is to blame. Secondly, many people have asked for more exciting, entertaining, fast flowing rugby. I agree this hasn't happened apart from in small doses. If any coach is to blame for the lack of exciting, entertaining, fast flowing rugby, then surely that has to be Mauger?

In my view, I haven't seen much that he has brought to the team that he was brought in to do. He has had a full pre-season and most of last season to bed in a system for us to play the still it isn't quite happening. I couldn't care less how we play, I'll take an ugly, boring win over an exciting but disappointing result 100% of the time. If I witnessed 3-0 wins every game, that's fine by me but so many people have been quick to blame Cockerill but are they really blaming the person they should be?
Last edited by ellis9 on Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Doghashadhisday
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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by Doghashadhisday » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:47 pm

ellis9 wrote:There has been so many comments saying that Cockerill should be sacked, he has no clue and needs to be replaced.

There has been loads of people saying we are not playing well.

Firstly, individual mistakes cannot be blamed on any coach. Only the player who made the mistake is to blame. Secondly, many people have asked for more exciting, entertaining, fast flowing rugby. I agree this hasn't happened apart from in small doses. If any coach is to blame for the lack of exciting, entertaining, fast flowing rugby, then surely that has to be Mauger?

In my view, I haven't seen much that he has brought to the team that he was brought in to do. He had had a full pre-season and most of last season to bed in a system for us to play the still it isn't quite happening. I couldn't care less how we play, I'll take an ugly, boring win over an exciting but disappointing result 100% of the time. If I witnessed 3-0 wins every game, that's fine by me but so many people have been quick to blame Cockerill but are they really blaming the person they should be?
Agree with you. The wrong person is being blamed. Its all your fault Ellis9

sapajo
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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by sapajo » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:19 pm

ellis9 wrote:There has been so many comments saying that Cockerill should be sacked, he has no clue and needs to be replaced.

There has been loads of people saying we are not playing well.

Firstly, individual mistakes cannot be blamed on any coach. Only the player who made the mistake is to blame. Secondly, many people have asked for more exciting, entertaining, fast flowing rugby. I agree this hasn't happened apart from in small doses. If any coach is to blame for the lack of exciting, entertaining, fast flowing rugby, then surely that has to be Mauger?

In my view, I haven't seen much that he has brought to the team that he was brought in to do. He had had a full pre-season and most of last season to bed in a system for us to play the still it isn't quite happening. I couldn't care less how we play, I'll take an ugly, boring win over an exciting but disappointing result 100% of the time. If I witnessed 3-0 wins every game, that's fine by me but so many people have been quick to blame Cockerill but are they really blaming the person they should be?

Well I had very high expectations of Mauger and Hansen, that said it was reputation and not evidence based as The Crusaders results since 2008 have not been anything to shout about! Mauger has been given the lion's share of which players we sign and who we let go, team selection and attack. He insisted on bringing Hansen with him as defence and skills coach. Cocker's is now firmly in his DOR slot and his coaching involvement is limited to the forwards. Make what you will of the reality of the current status quo and exactly where the responsibility for our ongoing problems truly lie ?
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Spicer
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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by Spicer » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:03 am

Very fair and good points.
I think Cockers gets the blame because he is still the face of the club, we don't see or here from Mauger ever. So we sort of forget about him.
They both deserve blame, Mauger for the reasons already stated and Cockers as out forwards have been pretty average.

It doesn't matter about what style you play when you play poorly like we have been. In all seriousness we haven't even been very expansive as our attacks usually are predictable and static with limited penetration.

I honestly think some persistent mistakes (which we have been making) can be coached out the players. The indiscipline, bad decision making and handling mistakes can be improved on persistent offenders. Levels of skill, consistency, concentration and decision making in the heat of battle can be improved.

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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by BengalTiger » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:48 am

I am sure Cockers would agree, the buck stops with him as DOR, if any facet is not up to standard he should make the call to change it and see measurable improvements, for me there is no coherent style and selection is also an issue, both should be addressed by the DOR.
I am a huge admirer of Cockers but he now needs to read the coaches the riot act and demand they do what they were bought over for before it costs him his job.
Personally if I were DOR I would arm the waterboys with tasers and tell the players, the next one to hoof the ball aimlessly into the arms of the opposition gets 10,000 volts!

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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by Maidman » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:56 am

ellis9 wrote:There has been so many comments saying that Cockerill should be sacked, he has no clue and needs to be replaced.

There has been loads of people saying we are not playing well.

Firstly, individual mistakes cannot be blamed on any coach. Only the player who made the mistake is to blame. Secondly, many people have asked for more exciting, entertaining, fast flowing rugby. I agree this hasn't happened apart from in small doses. If any coach is to blame for the lack of exciting, entertaining, fast flowing rugby, then surely that has to be Mauger?

In my view, I haven't seen much that he has brought to the team that he was brought in to do. He has had a full pre-season and most of last season to bed in a system for us to play the still it isn't quite happening. I couldn't care less how we play, I'll take an ugly, boring win over an exciting but disappointing result 100% of the time. If I witnessed 3-0 wins every game, that's fine by me but so many people have been quick to blame Cockerill but are they really blaming the person they should be?
I would agree with this. There was a lot of excitement when Mauger was appointed but I don't think he has really delivered. As I've said elsewhere, look at the impact Blackadder has had at Bath. Now I'm happy to allow some time for things to change and improve (Sarries didn't become seemingly invincible overnight) but I don't think we've actually seen any progress for a while. Something needs to change, because whilst 4th is okay, it is only okay, and it isn't really where we want to be. I think some rapid evolution is required, or otherwise it will need to be revolution!

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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by chewbacca » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:55 am

ellis9 wrote:There has been so many comments saying that Cockerill should be sacked, he has no clue and needs to be replaced.

There has been loads of people saying we are not playing well.

Firstly, individual mistakes cannot be blamed on any coach. Only the player who made the mistake is to blame. Secondly, many people have asked for more exciting, entertaining, fast flowing rugby. I agree this hasn't happened apart from in small doses. If any coach is to blame for the lack of exciting, entertaining, fast flowing rugby, then surely that has to be Mauger?

In my view, I haven't seen much that he has brought to the team that he was brought in to do. He has had a full pre-season and most of last season to bed in a system for us to play the still it isn't quite happening. I couldn't care less how we play, I'll take an ugly, boring win over an exciting but disappointing result 100% of the time. If I witnessed 3-0 wins every game, that's fine by me but so many people have been quick to blame Cockerill but are they really blaming the person they should be?
The executive of any business is ultimately responsible for the performance of the company. They select the employees, in this case coaches and players and set the strategy and direction for the organisation. It is familiar for such executives to 'waste' a number of subordinates along the way to their demise. Tigers are not performing as expected by the supporters. Are they achieving the performance goals of the business. I don't know but I suspect not. If we want to play AB rugby perhaps we should see if Steve Hansen fancies living in Leicestershire
I'm not cynical just experienced

ellis9
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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by ellis9 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:10 am

So now it's Simon Cohen's fault?

To say it's the top persons fault is ridiculous.

As you're talking in business terms, so will I. You could have the right person at the top making the right decisions but the staff below (coaches, players) not executing the plan correctly. Now normally, in a business, these staff would be put on to a development plan and then investigations etc where they would have a set time frame to correct and improve performance.

chewbacca
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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by chewbacca » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:17 am

ellis9 wrote:So now it's Simon Cohen's fault?

To say it's the top persons fault is ridiculous.

As you're talking in business terms, so will I. You could have the right person at the top making the right decisions but the staff below (coaches, players) not executing the plan correctly. Now normally, in a business, these staff would be put on to a development plan and then investigations etc where they would have a set time frame to correct and improve performance.
Perhaps you should actually read and understand a post before you respond. You may notice the conditional statement that the executive was 'ultimately' responsible. If that is not the case they how is their existence let alone their salary justifiable.
I'm not cynical just experienced

bc
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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by bc » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:06 am

I fail to see why people are so keen to jump to the defence of our DoR. During his tenure Tigers have declined. When he took over Tigers were a top 2 side now I would say that, at best, they would be 4th ranked and that's being kind!
Cockerill's success was at the beginning of his tenure - he benefited from the overhang of a team developed by others. Since then we have gone backwards.
I don't blame the players we have, who on paper, are a match for other squads - their motivation is in question and that sits squarely with Cockerill. There have been lots of rumours that his man management skills are poor.
Of course, he is also responsible for the forwards who have been 2nd best to many sides last season and have been poor this.
The sooner he goes the better. We need a DOR we has man management skills and a clear vision on how the club as whole should be playing rugby.
Just look at England - with the same players Eddie Jones has made the team to no 2 in the world yet 1 year ago they could not get out of the group stage at WC.

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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by fentiger » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:16 am

bc wrote:Just look at England - with the same players Eddie Jones has made the team to no 2 in the world yet 1 year ago they could not get out of the group stage at WC.
Salient point :smt023

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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by Iain » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:18 am

bc wrote:I fail to see why people are so keen to jump to the defence of our DoR. During his tenure Tigers have declined. When he took over Tigers were a top 2 side now I would say that, at best, they would be 4th ranked and that's being kind!
Cockerill's success was at the beginning of his tenure - he benefited from the overhang of a team developed by others. Since then we have gone backwards.
I don't blame the players we have, who on paper, are a match for other squads - their motivation is in question and that sits squarely with Cockerill. There have been lots of rumours that his man management skills are poor.
Of course, he is also responsible for the forwards who have been 2nd best to many sides last season and have been poor this.
The sooner he goes the better. We need a DOR we has man management skills and a clear vision on how the club as whole should be playing rugby.
Just look at England - with the same players Eddie Jones has made the team to no 2 in the world yet 1 year ago they could not get out of the group stage at WC.
When Cockerill was brought in we had just had Loffreda who had brought us dire rugby and scraped into the play offs and Meyer, who left under unfortunate circumstances but had us playing some desperate stuff. Under Cockerill we won the league straight away and got to a European Final, then retained the league the following season.

Let's not rewrite history yeah?

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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by tigerburnie » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:26 am

[quote="Iain]
When Cockerill was brought in we had just had Loffreda who had brought us dire rugby and scraped into the play offs and Meyer, who left under unfortunate circumstances but had us playing some desperate stuff. Under Cockerill we won the league straight away and got to a European Final, then retained the league the following season.

Let's not rewrite history yeah?[/quote]
Far too much common sense for the knee jerk brigade Iain.
There's a bit of a party atmosphere around Bath this afternoon - but you wouldn't get that at Leicester if we finished ninth." Richard Cockerill 7/5/16

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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by Noddy555 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:33 am

Whatever needs to be done it needs to be done quickly before a further rot sets in. Is it due to overtraining, injury treatment procedures, poor tactical decisions? I know I constantly bang on about it but Tigers powder puff tackling is a major cause that has been recognised by the top clubs who are exploiting it. Something serious is happening and the coaching staff seem to be wearing blinkers.

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Re: Blaming the right person?

Post by Roly » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:13 am

fentiger wrote:
bc wrote:Just look at England - with the same players Eddie Jones has made the team to no 2 in the world yet 1 year ago they could not get out of the group stage at WC.
Salient point :smt023
Its a point I've made on at least two occasions - so I'm glad you said it because if I'd have said it here, I'd be the subject of ridicule.

I also note that quite a few on this forum are questioning the ability of RC to progress this squad of players - again, its as obvious as a kick to the groin that he either can't or wont. But it seems some are perfectly entitled to this opinion, and some aren't.
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.

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