Just a hint of....a forward pass?

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Snorbins
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Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by Snorbins » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:24 pm

So refs have been told (?) to favour the attacking team, at what phase of attacking play could a forward pass be penalised? Glaws and Tigers were both recipients of tries where a forward pass was hinted at; Wasps and Exeter didn't get a look in at any forward pass as the ref penalised it.
You cannot favour an attacking team this way until all refs deem it acceptable, it them becomes a question of at what stage of play is it penalised?
Scrum feeding? As long as it's not into the second row it's OK?
We now have a ref, two assistant refs and the tmo - but a skewed game every week depending on the refs brain cell on the day!
What's the way forward?

ourla
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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by ourla » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:44 pm

Snorbins wrote:So refs have been told (?) to favour the attacking team, at what phase of attacking play could a forward pass be penalised? Glaws and Tigers were both recipients of tries where a forward pass was hinted at; Wasps and Exeter didn't get a look in at any forward pass as the ref penalised it.
You cannot favour an attacking team this way until all refs deem it acceptable, it them becomes a question of at what stage of play is it penalised?
Scrum feeding? As long as it's not into the second row it's OK?
We now have a ref, two assistant refs and the tmo - but a skewed game every week depending on the refs brain cell on the day!
What's the way forward?
I'm not with you tbh. A forward pass is a forward pass. Why they didn't TMO Gloucesters try and ours I don't know. But it's not because of any directive that I'm aware of.
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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by ellis9 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:45 pm

It's quite simple really. If the ball travels forward, you give a forward pass!

Having just seen the Quins highlights, there was a blatant forward pass for their try just before half time. They went to the TMO who for some reason said he couldn't see any obvious signs of the pass being forward! If they cannot see that after having looked at replays then God help us! I could see it was forward as it happened!

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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by strawclearer » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:48 pm

ourla wrote:
Snorbins wrote:So refs have been told (?) to favour the attacking team, at what phase of attacking play could a forward pass be penalised? Glaws and Tigers were both recipients of tries where a forward pass was hinted at; Wasps and Exeter didn't get a look in at any forward pass as the ref penalised it.
You cannot favour an attacking team this way until all refs deem it acceptable, it them becomes a question of at what stage of play is it penalised?
Scrum feeding? As long as it's not into the second row it's OK?
We now have a ref, two assistant refs and the tmo - but a skewed game every week depending on the refs brain cell on the day!
What's the way forward?
I'm not with you tbh. A forward pass is a forward pass. Why they didn't TMO Gloucesters try and ours I don't know. But it's not because of any directive that I'm aware of.
I really don't comprehend this. Anyone who's played rugby at a half decent level intuitively knows what a forward pass is. We don't need a definition - a pass is simply forward or it isn't!
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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by Bristol Tiger » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:13 pm

I'm sure we have been through this a few times before on this forum.

As long as a pass is thrown backwards, it can still move forward due to the momentum of the thrower and be deemed OK. In replays, the TMO needs to look at the direction of the hands (did they try to throw backwards) rather than the movement of the ball.

Reviewing the many "forward" passes over the weekend, most seemed to get away with the forward motion of the ball due to the motion of the hands being backwards (more or less).

Personally, I played when forward was forward no matter what your hands did but hey, that's progress ...

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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by ellis9 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:31 pm

That only works when BOTH players are running at high speed. If only 1 or both are jogging or a pass is made in the tackle or from the ground, then the momentum "rule" does not apply.

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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by sapajo » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:03 pm

Strikes me that if the recipient of the pass is ahead of the passer then that must by definition automatically be a forward pass :smt017 In the Quins game Merchant was clearly ahead of the passer.
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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by fentiger » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:02 am

Can't understand why TMO doesn't have access to an overlay grid for the monitor so lines can be used to determine if forward or not, suppose that's far too simple :smt017

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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by Tiger_in_Birmingham » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:37 am

ellis9 wrote:It's quite simple really. If the ball travels forward, you give a forward pass!
Not any more. The wording has now been officially changed to specify the direction of travel of the hands not the ball.
ellis9 wrote:That only works when BOTH players are running at high speed. If only 1 or both are jogging or a pass is made in the tackle or from the ground, then the momentum "rule" does not apply.
That's not how momentum works - only the player carrying the ball needs to be moving at speed. In theory the receiver could be standing in front of where the ball carrier ever was.
fentiger wrote:Can't understand why TMO doesn't have access to an overlay grid for the monitor so lines can be used to determine if forward or not, suppose that's far too simple :smt017
becaue the flight of the ball is now irrelevent, only the hand action matters

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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by Snorbins » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:21 am

I totally agree that when the ball goes forward from the hands its a forward pass. However, watching the games over the weekend it was stated more than once, by the TV pundits, that the ref will favour the attacking team if the pass seems to go slightly forward.
Its seems the laws are being diluted to get the faster running desired by the broadcaster and southern hemisphere.

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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by mol2 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:55 am

That sums up why we have these plain daft interpretations of what a forward pass is.

Why can't they just go with the fixed point - the pitch and has already been said overlay a grid when they go to the TV official?
It's not full contact basketball or American football which is what it is in danger of becoming if forward passes are allowed.

We've had the momentum garbage and now we have the way the hand/arms are moving.
The reality is the arms will be swinging in an arc and for most passes will at some point be moving forwards (release too early and it may go straight forward and release too late and it may go straight back)
Expecting to note the direction of the arms at the moment of release is near impossible as the arms will continue to swing further round and effectively look like they are going backwards.
A bonkers guidance on what should be the most simple law of the game to police, especially where there are TV cameras to confirm the situation.

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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by kend » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:17 am

Tiger_in_Birmingham wrote:
ellis9 wrote:That's not how momentum works - only the player carrying the ball needs to be moving at speed. In theory the receiver could be standing in front of where the ball carrier ever was.
That doesn't sound right. Surely momentum only applies if both players are moving at broadly the same speed, in which case the ball will travel backwards relative to the passing player. How it travels relative to the point on the pitch is irrelevant. If the ball carrier is static at the point of passing that does not apply - the ball has to travel backwards relative to the position on the pitch?

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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by Noddy555 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:50 am

A Definite Forward pass, when errors are as blatant as that, the RFU should reserve the right to alter the score post match even if it leads to a different and fairer result. In this case it would have meant the 4 points going to the Chiefs and not wasps. What's the point of all this technology if it's not used to correct glaring errors such as this.
Exeter deserved to win anyway, and it's time that results reflect this.

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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by trendylfj » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:20 am

Don't think too many of us old uns like the new directive re forward pass but we are just going to moan and eventually accept it. Maybe it will lead to a new technique - top hand goes backwards whilst the bottom hand pushes it forward. Am going outside to practice it to see if it works
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Re: Just a hint of....a forward pass?

Post by Tiger_in_Birmingham » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:34 am

kend wrote:
Tiger_in_Birmingham wrote:That's not how momentum works - only the player carrying the ball needs to be moving at speed. In theory the receiver could be standing in front of where the ball carrier ever was.
That doesn't sound right. Surely momentum only applies if both players are moving at broadly the same speed, in which case the ball will travel backwards relative to the passing player. How it travels relative to the point on the pitch is irrelevant. If the ball carrier is static at the point of passing that does not apply - the ball has to travel backwards relative to the position on the pitch?
Note, the new law wording does not mention momentum, it only mentions the direction of the arms of the player throwing the pass.

The momentum (real world appliction of the law) only comes from the player carrying the ball - that's good old physics, nothing to do with World Rugby.

The ball carrier can be running forwards, throw it with a backwards hand action, the ball travel forwards in absolute terms and be caught by a player standing still in front of the original carrier. The receiving player has no part in the action of the pass, they can be standing wherever they want and not have any effect on the throw.

I think in this (deliberately) absurd case it would probably be called a forward pass even though to the letter of the law it would be legal.

I can see high looping passes being thrown on particularly windy days in the hope that they catch in the wind and drift over the opposition defence. A bit like a chip over but with no offside line being created as it's a thrown ball and not a kicked one.

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