Simon Cohen takes a different view.......as do Glaws

[tigercaspian]

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured ... as-flawed/

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured ... cash-boom/

[trendylfj]

They are both absobloodylutely correct, but what can they do about it? Disclose what happened with the salary cap investigations would be a start!!!!! We all know that it is being broken because 1 + 1 don't make 3. Yes, I don't KNOW but it is all what many people suspect. It is all about the money going into the central coffers to pay for their projects. Yes, top players will benefit and the club will suffer but why are there that many "international" games if they want to reduce the player load. What they are effectively saying is that they want "their" players to be available when they want them cos they produce the money for the ruling bodies.

[jgriffin]

When the first club goes into administration or is traded as an asset, then someone at PRL, RPA or the RFU may actually take some notice. Total sense talked by both.

[teds]

When you say some clubs traded as an asset is that different from what happened with London wasps? Or to an extent with Sarries?

[tigercaspian]

I agree with both Cohen and Vaughan on this, probably wouldn't have posted it otherwise

However, I am not sure I agree with the point I think you are making, teds, that Wasps is being traded as a commercial entity for later sale and therefore gain. Wasps were financially and physically up a cul-de-sac and were only going to go bust, and have actually been rescued from that fate. They are certainly spending big time but they have also done a lot to broaden their income streams at the Ricoh and good luck to them on that front. Apologies if I have misunderstood what you were saying........

[jgriffin]

I think I may have introduced the trading aspect to the debate.
'Unlike a bank deposit, the Bonds are not covered by the UK Financial Services Compensation Scheme in the event that Wasps Finance plc is unable to pay its debts.
In the event that Wasps Finance plc cannot pay its debts in full, or goes out of business, you may lose some or all of your investment.
The market price of the Bonds could fall during the life of the investment. If you choose to sell your Bonds before maturity you may get back less than your original investment.'
Two scenarios (apart from the whole thing being a roaring success)
1 the assets (land, Ricoh and club) end up as payment as returns are nowhere near 6.5% and default terms are invoked
2 bondholders are made an offer they won't refuse as it's better than actual returns - tradeability is unrestricted - and are concentrated in one set of hands, a hedge fund perhaps, looking for quick returns.....
(The bonds can only be traded through the Jersey exchange.)
There has been an overall loss consistently despite the income from the Ricoh and entertainments, so it is not unlikely that 6.5% won't make it. Bonds could be snapped up by a third party and assets realised by default procedure.
All the companies, and 77% of the site activities are owned, in the last analysis, by Richardson via offshore vehicles (Malta, and I assume, Jersey).
As this is what I read from the prospectus, I'm sure there will be someone with far more expertise to clarify/refute my meagre conclusions!

[The Boy Dave]

The marquee player salaries outside of the cap were a very bad idea IMO!
To elaborate on this the marquee salaries have driven up wages and pressure within the cap in just one season.

[tigercaspian]

Thanks JG. Appreciate the detail. It would seem that Mr Richardson would not lose out if push came to shove then....in which case 'traded as an asset'is probably not unfair
Cheers

[jgriffin]

Thanks JG. Appreciate the detail. It would seem that Mr Richardson would not lose out if push came to shove then....in which case 'traded as an asset'is probably not unfair
Cheers

He has at least two companies between him and the knackers yard, and ACL is Malta based (not a good acronym for a sports company!). I should suspect he has mechanisms for extracting value from Wasps Holdings, such as a loan from ACL that requires repayment, is tax avoidant, and dribbles money into his account.

[wellstiger]

I think I must be slow on the uptake.
Is RFU looking to make an elite Premiership with a limited number of clubs e.g 10 with no promotion nor relegation and to go the route of football with high wages, player promoters in running contract issues.
As I see it newly promoted clubs are at a disadvantage with the Wage bill. Marquee players should be equated into the wage caps.
Surly Simon Cohen is right that clubs should be first solvent, be able to regenerate and have player welfare at the centre of development.

IMHO clubs that are not solvent or are failing to run in the black should be either demoted or penalised points at the start of the season.

[mol2]

Or is it just an acceptance that it is as easy as knitting fog as it is to control salaries.
Players will seek the best deal they can get. Be that in England or France.

Enforcing the salary cap is a legally difficult challenge so they have just about given up by elevating it to a level that most clubs can't afford anyway.

Will it be good for the national side? Who knows.

Will some clubs go under when their income, ambitions and salary bill get out of balance? Almost certainly.

[h's dad]

From posts on this and other threads it seems that quite a few on here think the salary cap is already too high. Presumably this means that those who say this must believe PRL teams should either pay players less and/or have smaller squads from which I can only deduce that they are asserting that these players are overpaid/underworked. Would anybody propounding that the salary cap is too high/generous care to expand on this?

[The Boy Dave]

[quote="h's dad"]From posts on this and other threads it seems that quite a few on here think the salary cap is already too high. Presumably this means that those who say this must believe PRL teams should either pay players less and/or have smaller squads from which I can only deduce that they are asserting that these players are overpaid/underworked. Would anybody propounding that the salary cap is too high/generous care to expand on this?[/quote]

Purely based on Cohen's and others comments, they should know, unless you know better!
I don't believe anyone said they were underworked although there are many players who are overpaid/overrated IMO.
They can choose another profession if they are not satisfied rather than drive rugby into a mountain of debt.
Just a few leagues below many play for free you know!

[h's dad]

From posts on this and other threads it seems that quite a few on here think the salary cap is already too high. Presumably this means that those who say this must believe PRL teams should either pay players less and/or have smaller squads from which I can only deduce that they are asserting that these players are overpaid/underworked. Would anybody propounding that the salary cap is too high/generous care to expand on this?[/quote]

Purely based on Cohen's and others comments, they should know, unless you know better!
I don't believe anyone said they were underworked although there are many players who are overpaid/overrated IMO.
They can choose another profession if they are not satisfied rather than drive rugby into a mountain of debt.
Just a few leagues below many play for free you know!

I don't claim to know better. I'm just not sure that it's right that a professional sportsman with a relatively short career, risking injuries that may well affect their long term welfare, representing his country in a high profile sport often gets paid less than a moderately well rewarded bone idle desk jockey. I'm not talking about the marquee players and probably not the few highest paid within the cap but just below that in the pecking order.

I don't know about driving rugby into a mountain of debt. There is extra money coming into rugby. I'm just saying I'm not averse to the players getting some of it.

I think you'll have to go quite a few leagues down to find one where most teams don't pay a modest win bonus and beer allowance or similar.

[The Boy Dave]

From posts on this and other threads it seems that quite a few on here think the salary cap is already too high. Presumably this means that those who say this must believe PRL teams should either pay players less and/or have smaller squads from which I can only deduce that they are asserting that these players are overpaid/underworked. Would anybody propounding that the salary cap is too high/generous care to expand on this?[/quote]

Purely based on Cohen's and others comments, they should know, unless you know better!
I don't believe anyone said they were underworked although there are many players who are overpaid/overrated IMO.
They can choose another profession if they are not satisfied rather than drive rugby into a mountain of debt.
Just a few leagues below many play for free you know!

I don't claim to know better. I'm just not sure that it's right that a professional sportsman with a relatively short career, risking injuries that may well affect their long term welfare, representing his country in a high profile sport often gets paid less than a moderately well rewarded bone idle desk jockey. I'm not talking about the marquee players and probably not the few highest paid within the cap but just below that in the pecking order.

I don't know about driving rugby into a mountain of debt. There is extra money coming into rugby. I'm just saying I'm not averse to the players getting some of it.

I think you'll have to go quite a few leagues down to find one where most teams don't pay a modest win bonus and beer allowance or similar.

The salary cap shows little signs of slowing down.
£500,000 pa is a bit different to beer tokens!
No idea what the top salary was ten years back but it seems to have spiralled significantly and I believe it will continue.
How long before we see the first £1,000,000 pa wage, can it seriously be afforded!
What could the repercussions be and should it be stopped now before it's allowed to happen, that's what Cohen and Co are attempting to raise awareness of IMO!
I don't expect players to play on the cheap but finances also need to be in place for things such as stadia, grassroots and the ever changing economic climate.
Some clubs are being pushed into a corner IMO as the balance between sensible financial management and the chase for success swings ever to one side, the players themselves and their agents have a very big role to play in that!