Jacob Umaga

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Noddy555
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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by Noddy555 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:35 am

Yes Sorry Raging I got it wrong about Henry Slade but it doesn't detract from the veracity of my argument too many youngsters are not given the chance they deserve by this club which can only mean to a continuous exodus of talent in the future.

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by Cagey Tiger » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:00 pm

Noddy555 wrote:Yes Sorry Raging I got it wrong about Henry Slade but it doesn't detract from the veracity of my argument too many youngsters are not given the chance they deserve by this club which can only mean to a continuous exodus of talent in the future.
I think that there is a historical reason for this. Until the last few seasons, Tigers were THE team to beat in the league. Generally, everyone put out their best team against us and the opposition players raised their game as well. This made it difficult to play young players as there were few "easy" games. The partial levelling of the playing field caused by the salary cap made Tigers task even more difficult.

However, in the last few seasons, with the emergence of Saints, Sarries and Exeter, and Tigers being caught up, I think that the cachet of beating Tigers is not the same or as unique as it once was. This should make it easier for us to introduce young players. I have noticed that over the last two seasons, there has been more use of young players and replacements during games. Certainly more than 3-5 seasons ago, when we seemed to stick to the starting 15 all game in most games.

4071
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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by 4071 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:53 am

Cagey Tiger wrote:
Noddy555 wrote:Yes Sorry Raging I got it wrong about Henry Slade but it doesn't detract from the veracity of my argument too many youngsters are not given the chance they deserve by this club which can only mean to a continuous exodus of talent in the future.
I think that there is a historical reason for this. Until the last few seasons, Tigers were THE team to beat in the league. Generally, everyone put out their best team against us and the opposition players raised their game as well. This made it difficult to play young players as there were few "easy" games. The partial levelling of the playing field caused by the salary cap made Tigers task even more difficult.

However, in the last few seasons, with the emergence of Saints, Sarries and Exeter, and Tigers being caught up, I think that the cachet of beating Tigers is not the same or as unique as it once was. This should make it easier for us to introduce young players. I have noticed that over the last two seasons, there has been more use of young players and replacements during games. Certainly more than 3-5 seasons ago, when we seemed to stick to the starting 15 all game in most games.
Actually, if you take Thacker of the picture then it's still not looking good. We do have some young players we have bought and given game time to - the likes of Barrow, Kitto, Bell and - to a lesser extent - Genge.

However, once again they all broke through elsewhere before being imported. When it comes to developing from within it's still looking pretty shabby.

Aside from Thacker we have given game time to a fair number of young academy players, but not much when compared to other clubs: Brugnara (0+5 apps), Pasquali (0+2 apps), Evans (2+2 apps), Tresidder (0+1 app), White (0+1 app), Bryant (1+1 apps), Worth (0+1 app), Catchpole (2+2 apps)

Several of those players are already off, and I suspect the rest will follow. We can hold out some hope for Evans as we haven't obsessively recruited in the back row yet, but we've had plenty of promising young back-rowers come and go without making much of a splash.

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by The Boy Dave » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:14 am

Actually, if you take Thacker of the picture then it's still not looking good. We do have some young players we have bought and given game time to - the likes of Barrow, Kitto, Bell and - to a lesser extent - Genge.

However, once again they all broke through elsewhere before being imported. When it comes to developing from within it's still looking pretty shabby.

Aside from Thacker we have given game time to a fair number of young academy players, but not much when compared to other clubs: Brugnara (0+5 apps), Pasquali (0+2 apps), Evans (2+2 apps), Tresidder (0+1 app), White (0+1 app), Bryant (1+1 apps), Worth (0+1 app), Catchpole (2+2 apps)

Several of those players are already off, and I suspect the rest will follow. We can hold out some hope for Evans as we haven't obsessively recruited in the back row yet, but we've had plenty of promising young back-rowers come and go without making much of a splash
I don't believe Thacker is a good case for the club at all, in fact a great example of everything that is wrong.
He's obviously talented but then so are many players but he is so lacking in certain areas in comparison to a player like Will Evans who is much more complete than Thacker.
I guess it's about who you know and not what you know which has become the very heart of the issue of not developing home grown players for me both through the academy and importing players to a certain extent.
There are many examples in recent times of far more complete players than Thacker not getting opportunities to develop at 1st team level.
If it happens at that level then it happens at every level.
Tigers have become dinosaurs in development IMO.
The best young player that I know of who I had seen in a generation locally has just joined the forces I am told, another one lost who to be honest would smash 95+% of academy players out of sight given the opportunity.
It's a classic case of when the problem asks what is the problem!
Last edited by The Boy Dave on Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheery chappy

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by 4071 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:18 am

Apparently Paolo Odogwu is off to Sale.

It seems like young players are deciding to bail before they waste key development years at Tigers and then get binned at 22/23 anyway.

Lewington has become a Saxon within 2 seasons of Leicester deciding he wasn't worth even a looking at off the bench in the Premiership. How much further along would he be if he hadn't wasted three seasons getting intermittent LV Cup games and instead had been properly developed?

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by RagingBull » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:20 am

The Boy Dave wrote:
I don't believe Thacker is a good case for the club at all, in fact a great example of everything that is wrong.
He's obviously talented but then so are many players but he is so lacking in certain areas in comparison to a player like Will Evans who is much more complete than Thacker.
I guess it's about who you know and not what you know which has become the very heart of the issue of not developing home grown players for me both through the academy and importing players to a certain extent.
There are many examples in recent times of far more complete players than Thacker not getting opportunities to develop at 1st team level.
If it happens at that level then it happens at every level.
Tigers have become dinosaurs in development IMO.
The best young player that I know of who I had seen in a generation locally has just joined the forces I am told, another one lost who to be honest would smash 95% of academy players out of sight given the opportunity.
It's a classic case of when the problem asks what is the problem!
If that is Yawayawa that seemed to be his plan for a while, try and do a Roko and Lewsey join the Forces whilst young then come back to Rugby aswell a bit later. His Dad was in the army.

That is if it is him.
4071 wrote:Apparently Paolo Odogwu is off to Sale.

It seems like young players are deciding to bail before they waste key development years at Tigers and then get binned at 22/23 anyway.
And Odogwu wasn't offer a new contract.

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by G.K » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:28 am

Mr Bean wrote:
Snorbins wrote:get them a proper league to play in and compete.
One thing Saracens have done over the last few years is really utilize the dual registration system with many of there players turning out for Bedford in the Championship. Looking at team which played in the Premiership final 7 of them have played with Bedford under DR as well as Duncan Taylor played a lot of Championship rugby coming through Bedfords academy. I know Leicester used to do this with Bedford a few years ago when the likes of Dan Cole, Tom Youngs and numerous other younger players but I'm not sure if they have picked up a similar relationship with another team.
I thought we also had a DR scheme with Nottingham a few years back. What happened to that?
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by The Boy Dave » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:40 am

RagingBull

If that is Yawayawa that seemed to be his plan for a while, try and do a Roko and Lewsey join the Forces whilst young then come back to Rugby aswell a bit later. His Dad was in the army.

That is if it is him.
No this is another lad RB, mainly front row but also flirted occasionally on the backrow as a kid who was let go before full academy.
He had been training as a 17 year old colt locally with a National league senior side last season and some of the senior players couldn't believe that he had been overlooked as he was so naturally gifted and strong.
Cheery chappy

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by RagingBull » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:52 am

The Boy Dave wrote:
RagingBull

If that is Yawayawa that seemed to be his plan for a while, try and do a Roko and Lewsey join the Forces whilst young then come back to Rugby aswell a bit later. His Dad was in the army.

That is if it is him.
No this is another lad RB, mainly front row but also flirted occasionally on the backrow as a kid who was let go before full academy.
He had been training as a 17 year old colt locally with a National league senior side last season and some of senior the players couldn't believe that he had been overlooked as he was so naturally gifted and strong.
Oh okay, fair does.

Trouble is a lot is done on a mix of Who you know, where you play rugby @ School and Height and Weight.

It isn't great at all but Tigers hardly the only academy to do it, Although it is starting to look like changes are happening gradually. But it is generally a England thing altogether, and the whole system is designed to loss more player than gain them.




I mean it's all well and good saying player have earnt the chance but some of them hadn't TBH.
And who has gone that would of made a good shot of the senior squad ahead of others?
for me
Ford (Although if rumours of him bailing on Bath are true then im not sure how easy it would of been to keep him anyway).
Lewington (this one has really :censored: me off)
Purdy (Although TBH wasn't anything special in the LV cup and for Nottingham, but has come good at glous although limited gametime this season)
Twelvetrees (But wouldn't be a starter next season)
Green (But again wouldn't be in our top 4 locks ATM)

Struggling to think of more ATM.
Will be interesting to see Jamal Ford-Robinson in the AP next season.

If the coaches don't think they are up to it should they play them in the AP?

Wasps are in a similar situation as well, who was the last Academy player to get regular gametime for them? Daly in 2010, Wade in 2011. Have just lost Lowzoswki, Bath in a similar position with Devoto.

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by The Boy Dave » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:14 am

Oh okay, fair does.

Trouble is a lot is done on a mix of Who you know, where you play rugby @ School and Height and Weight.

It isn't great at all but Tigers hardly the only academy to do it,
Although it is starting to look like changes are happening gradually.

I mean it's all well and good saying player have earnt the chance but some of them hadn't TBH.
And who has gone that would of made a good shot of the senior squad ahead of others?
for me
Ford (Although if rumours of him bailing on Bath are true then im not sure how easy it would of been to keep him anyway).
Lewington (this one has really :censored: me off)
Purdy (Although TBH wasn't anything special in the LV cup and for Nottingham, but has come good at glous although limited gametime this season)
Twelvetrees (But wouldn't be a starter next season)
Green (But again wouldn't be in our top 4 locks ATM)

Struggling to think of more ATM.
Will be interesting to see Jamal Ford-Robinson in the AP next season.

If the coaches don't think they are up to it should they play them in the AP?

Wasps are in a similar situation as well, who was the last Academy player to get regular gametime for them? Daly in 2010, Wade in 2011. Have just lost Lowzoswki, Bath in a similar position with Devoto.
That is very true.
Some are just doing it much better than others.
Cheery chappy

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by darganj » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:22 pm

Not having a single player in the JWC U20s opening match day squad of 23 is pretty embarassing.

Did Will Evans not make the cut?

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by RagingBull » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:34 pm

darganj wrote:Not having a single player in the JWC U20s opening match day squad of 23 is pretty embarassing.

Did Will Evans not make the cut?
It's against Italy the easiest team in the pool on paper, with about about a 3/4 day turnaround for the Game V Scotland and another 4 day turnaround for game V Aus.

I expect him to start in one of those games.

Looking at the team Haag hasn't gone full strength pack, esp with the Captain walker on the bench, and even Johnny Williams on the bench.

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