Jacob Umaga

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RagingBull
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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by RagingBull » Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:26 pm

Noddy555 wrote:Yet another example of possibly losing a fine young player through lack of first class rugby. Tigers like other clubs have got to seriously address this issue or the talent will once again drift away to Europe or the Southern Hemisphere. Whether this is by an expansion of the "A" league system or by adopting or taking over a club lower down in the system echelon.
Don't think that has anything to do with it.

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by Hot_Charlie » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:29 pm

Made worse by the lack of LV Cup last season. Historically this is where the younger players (16 yo George Ford as an example) have gained first team experience. In some ways we were lucky that the away AP match at Bath was a dead rubber to reward a couple of promising youngsters with game time.

Another way we were royally screwed over by RWC. Yes we had KoTN but that didn't allow season long development.
Last edited by Hot_Charlie on Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Snorbins
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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by Snorbins » Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:10 pm

get them a proper league to play in and compete.

Mr Bean
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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by Mr Bean » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:05 pm

Snorbins wrote:get them a proper league to play in and compete.
One thing Saracens have done over the last few years is really utilize the dual registration system with many of there players turning out for Bedford in the Championship. Looking at team which played in the Premiership final 7 of them have played with Bedford under DR as well as Duncan Taylor played a lot of Championship rugby coming through Bedfords academy. I know Leicester used to do this with Bedford a few years ago when the likes of Dan Cole, Tom Youngs and numerous other younger players but I'm not sure if they have picked up a similar relationship with another team.

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by RagingBull » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:22 pm

Mr Bean wrote:
Snorbins wrote:get them a proper league to play in and compete.
One thing Saracens have done over the last few years is really utilize the dual registration system with many of there players turning out for Bedford in the Championship. Looking at team which played in the Premiership final 7 of them have played with Bedford under DR as well as Duncan Taylor played a lot of Championship rugby coming through Bedfords academy. I know Leicester used to do this with Bedford a few years ago when the likes of Dan Cole, Tom Youngs and numerous other younger players but I'm not sure if they have picked up a similar relationship with another team.
We have loaned
Thacker
Brugnara
Pas
Maksymiw
Owen
Tressider
White
Catchpole
to Doncaster over the last 2 seasons, I think.

strawclearer
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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by strawclearer » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:26 pm

RagingBull wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:
Snorbins wrote:get them a proper league to play in and compete.
One thing Saracens have done over the last few years is really utilize the dual registration system with many of there players turning out for Bedford in the Championship. Looking at team which played in the Premiership final 7 of them have played with Bedford under DR as well as Duncan Taylor played a lot of Championship rugby coming through Bedfords academy. I know Leicester used to do this with Bedford a few years ago when the likes of Dan Cole, Tom Youngs and numerous other younger players but I'm not sure if they have picked up a similar relationship with another team.
We have loaned
Thacker
Brugnara
Pas
Maksymiw
Owen
Tressider
White
Catchpole
to Doncaster over the last 2 seasons, I think.
Agreed. Strawclearer Jnr lives in Doncaster and watches them pretty freqently - often with a number of younger Tigers.
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
Stay Home>Protect The NHS>Save Lives

johnthegriff
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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by johnthegriff » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:39 pm

Rules prevent the take over of a club lower in the pecking order although dual contract relationships can be developed. Tigers are not going to put a frail 17 year old in the first team before he is ready and we cannot play more A league fixtures if other teams are unable to provide opposition, personally I think being in the Premiership should be conditional on the ability to play a full A league programme.
Umaga from what I have seen has done nothing yet to show he has the potential to go all the way. Next season we have at 10 Burns, Williams, Bryant and also Tomua who can play that position. I understand that there is a better and younger prospect than Umaga in the Academy, possibly he is being realistic and moving on before his stock is devalued. In five or six years we will know if Tigers have missed a trick or not.

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by The Boy Dave » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:01 pm

Rules prevent the take over of a club lower in the pecking order although dual contract relationships can be developed. Tigers are not going to put a frail 17 year old in the first team before he is ready and we cannot play more A league fixtures if other teams are unable to provide opposition, personally I think being in the Premiership should be conditional on the ability to play a full A league programme.
Umaga from what I have seen has done nothing yet to show he has the potential to go all the way. Next season we have at 10 Burns, Williams, Bryant and also Tomua who can play that position. I understand that there is a better and younger prospect than Umaga in the Academy, possibly he is being realistic and moving on before his stock is devalued. In five or six years we will know if Tigers have missed a trick or not.
What a short sighted and typically toe the party line statement!
There is another better player, so why not keep them both?
I can imagine which idiot spouted that nonsense!
We have seen George Ford playing for England and even accepted a hooker of our own who resembles a garden gnome at the cost of an entire scrum going backwards, and yet at just 17 although arguably bigger than those two already with time to get bigger still Umaga is frail, just laughable!
After reading that just maybe he is better off going somewhere where talent such as Christian Wade does get a chance!
Cheery chappy

propupthebar
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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by propupthebar » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:52 am

The reason why he left should be the concern. He obviously comes from a family who's dad and uncle have a wealth of experience in coaching and the game and would have many contacts around the area and overseas but he has chosen to stay in England at a club down the road after being here since he was 14/15 and been in the full time academy. He's impressed the England 18/19 coaches and we offered him a contract to stay. Our academy structure changed last year with new coaches and management it obviously wasn't attractive to him.

Roly
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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by Roly » Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:09 am

The Boy Dave wrote:
Rules prevent the take over of a club lower in the pecking order although dual contract relationships can be developed. Tigers are not going to put a frail 17 year old in the first team before he is ready and we cannot play more A league fixtures if other teams are unable to provide opposition, personally I think being in the Premiership should be conditional on the ability to play a full A league programme.
Umaga from what I have seen has done nothing yet to show he has the potential to go all the way. Next season we have at 10 Burns, Williams, Bryant and also Tomua who can play that position. I understand that there is a better and younger prospect than Umaga in the Academy, possibly he is being realistic and moving on before his stock is devalued. In five or six years we will know if Tigers have missed a trick or not.
What a short sighted and typically toe the party line statement!
There is another better player, so why not keep them both?
I can imagine which idiot spouted that nonsense!
We have seen George Ford playing for England and even accepted a hooker of our own who resembles a garden gnome at the cost of an entire scrum going backwards, and yet at just 17 although arguably bigger than those two already with time to get bigger still Umaga is frail, just laughable!
After reading that just maybe he is better off going somewhere where talent such as Christian Wade does get a chance!
+1 (in a big way).
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.

Cardiff Tig
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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by Cardiff Tig » Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:29 am

The Boy Dave wrote:
Rules prevent the take over of a club lower in the pecking order although dual contract relationships can be developed. Tigers are not going to put a frail 17 year old in the first team before he is ready and we cannot play more A league fixtures if other teams are unable to provide opposition, personally I think being in the Premiership should be conditional on the ability to play a full A league programme.
Umaga from what I have seen has done nothing yet to show he has the potential to go all the way. Next season we have at 10 Burns, Williams, Bryant and also Tomua who can play that position. I understand that there is a better and younger prospect than Umaga in the Academy, possibly he is being realistic and moving on before his stock is devalued. In five or six years we will know if Tigers have missed a trick or not.
What a short sighted and typically toe the party line statement!
There is another better player, so why not keep them both?
I can imagine which idiot spouted that nonsense!
We have seen George Ford playing for England and even accepted a hooker of our own who resembles a garden gnome at the cost of an entire scrum going backwards, and yet at just 17 although arguably bigger than those two already with time to get bigger still Umaga is frail, just laughable!
After reading that just maybe he is better off going somewhere where talent such as Christian Wade does get a chance!
The point is at 17 he is too frail for first team rugby. If anything the evidence suggests size won't hinder his progress at Tigers. I bet he doesn't play for Wasps next year in the league or european cup. I'm not sure what Tigers could have done to keep him other offer him lots of money, this isn't about playing opportunities.

It may well be that Tigers are struggling to keep youngsters due to decisions over the last few years (not sure I buy that but we'll see), but Wasps have taken a huge gamble if they have paid over the odds for a 17 year old.

Plus I bet he will head back to NZ soon enough to try and get an All Black cap.

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by The Boy Dave » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:28 am

The point is at 17 he is too frail for first team rugby. If anything the evidence suggests size won't hinder his progress at Tigers. I bet he doesn't play for Wasps next year in the league or european cup. I'm not sure what Tigers could have done to keep him other offer him lots of money, this isn't about playing opportunities.

It may well be that Tigers are struggling to keep youngsters due to decisions over the last few years (not sure I buy that but we'll see), but Wasps have taken a huge gamble if they have paid over the odds for a 17 year old.

Plus I bet he will head back to NZ soon enough to try and get an All Black cap.
In reply he's no more of a financial gamble than JDV was.
I've no doubt he has still to develop and also doubt he'll play for wasps next year, but he might.
What sour grapes though to put the kid down the moment he is gone, just typical of the mentality (not aimed at you).
I think one thing is for certain given that type of statement (not yours) he'll clearly be better off where he has gone.
Keep them who are talented, developing them properly is the way!
He'll play for England IMO, he is English born and very talented with time still on his side to develop physically.
We could well see him along with several other talented lads such as Crossdale who has gone to Sarries, Grayson at Saints, Ibitoye at Quins and several others being stars of the future.
Cheery chappy

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by darganj » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:36 am

Cardiff Tig wrote:
The Boy Dave wrote:
Rules prevent the take over of a club lower in the pecking order although dual contract relationships can be developed. Tigers are not going to put a frail 17 year old in the first team before he is ready and we cannot play more A league fixtures if other teams are unable to provide opposition, personally I think being in the Premiership should be conditional on the ability to play a full A league programme.
Umaga from what I have seen has done nothing yet to show he has the potential to go all the way. Next season we have at 10 Burns, Williams, Bryant and also Tomua who can play that position. I understand that there is a better and younger prospect than Umaga in the Academy, possibly he is being realistic and moving on before his stock is devalued. In five or six years we will know if Tigers have missed a trick or not.
What a short sighted and typically toe the party line statement!
There is another better player, so why not keep them both?
I can imagine which idiot spouted that nonsense!
We have seen George Ford playing for England and even accepted a hooker of our own who resembles a garden gnome at the cost of an entire scrum going backwards, and yet at just 17 although arguably bigger than those two already with time to get bigger still Umaga is frail, just laughable!
After reading that just maybe he is better off going somewhere where talent such as Christian Wade does get a chance!
The point is at 17 he is too frail for first team rugby. If anything the evidence suggests size won't hinder his progress at Tigers. I bet he doesn't play for Wasps next year in the league or european cup. I'm not sure what Tigers could have done to keep him other offer him lots of money, this isn't about playing opportunities.

It may well be that Tigers are struggling to keep youngsters due to decisions over the last few years (not sure I buy that but we'll see), but Wasps have taken a huge gamble if they have paid over the odds for a 17 year old.

Plus I bet he will head back to NZ soon enough to try and get an All Black cap.
You are way wide of the mark here. I know Mike Umaga and his whole family is England focused.

They have been very settled here for a long time now and Jacob will remain in the UK and play for England.

Also people think size will potentially hinder his progress?! Have you seen the genetics of the kid, he has just grown vertically rapidly and will fill out a lot in next 2 years.

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by Cardiff Tig » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:45 am

I agree with most of that, I just think you have to draw a line at how much you pay a unproven 17 year old - it could set a dangerous precedent IMO. Although it does seem that its the way the game is going. Its a sad day when players leave one academy to sign for another academy.

I don't think his size will be an issue (we gave Ford and Thacker plenty of game time after all!), I'm just saying that right now he's not ready for the first team. Bulking out over the next 2 seasons may have a big effect on his playing style etc, we'll have to see what happens.

Personally I hope he succeeds, and if he plays for England then its even better!

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Re: Jacob Umaga

Post by The Boy Dave » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:00 am

I don't think he needs to bulk up loads for his position and he is so talented he could yet play many positions, not many kids have the talent to move around like that and he'll get better from doing it.
He seems quite durable for his size from what I have seen and if seeing the likes of Farrell actually trim down in recent times and the rise of players like Veainu then agility is coming more into the game.
I think Tigers could've made a massive error on this one.
The money involved would be small, we are not talking huge amounts here but just a fair amount for the potential he has.
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Cheery chappy

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