Club Rugby

[JackFlashJonny]

Club Rugby needs to take a good look at itself and what they have let happen..

The plastic final between Racing and Saracens will take place with barely any fans of either teams in situ..

To allow two teams to have such massive debts is just awful where is financial fair play when you need it..

Fair play to Saracens the players they are producing are excellent but they are a plastic club and like Racing a soulless one..Toulon changed the game forever and it will never be the same but at least they had a few fans to cheer them on

As many pundits said the Irish travelling fans have really been amiss this tournament..

This post comes across very bitter but I have nothing against Sarries or Racings few fans (or magnificent players)just think it is sad club rugby has become this soulless final with barely a few thousand from each team I would imagine..

I cannot help but think that these clubs were the ones purchased as they did not have the fans, structures and boards in place such as us established clubs so the rich men could easily play fantasy rugby with them..

[darganj]

I get your point with Racing as it is a galacticos XV and is harmful to the French game.

But I think you are really wide of the mark with Sarries. They may annoy people with their style of play but they are producing a conveyor belt of high quality English players.

I don't think you can just judge a side on their attendance records. Sarries are investing a lot in their community and academy structure to help them and England in the future.

The only thing you can be annoyed about is the salary cap farce and Tigers didn't fight to get that info released.

[RagingBull]

I get your point with Racing as it is a galacticos XV and is harmful to the French game.

But I think you are really wide of the mark with Sarries. They may annoy people with their style of play but they are producing a conveyor belt of high quality English players.

I don't think you can just judge a side on their attendance records. Sarries are investing a lot in their community and academy structure to help them and England in the future.

The only thing you can be annoyed about is the salary cap farce and Tigers didn't fight to get that info released.

This pretty much.

Although Sarries did start the big spending route when the money first came in they also invested as darganj said a huge amount into academy and community structure and it is showing.

This weekend how many of their players were academy products compare to Wasps
Saracens
Goode
Itoje
Kruis
Wray
Saunders

Compared to Wasps
Wade
Daly
Haskell
Simpson
Jones

Really if you look at the Wasps and the Sarries teams next to each and look at where they where signed from Wasps def have more of a galacticos feeling IMO now.

[JackFlashJonny]

As I said the players Sarries are producing are excellent but you are missing the point..

That being that a club with no fans can spend such figures and have such debt..it is sad that whichever team wins so few people will be happy..

The ethos of buying success...trademarked by Toulon in 2013

[darganj]

As I said the players Sarries are producing are excellent but you are missing the point..

That being that a club with no fans can spend such figures and have such debt..it is sad that whichever team wins so few people will be happy..

The ethos of buying success...trademarked by Toulon in 2013

It is pretty irrelevant if a club is funded by debt or equity as long as the club doesnt go under. I think there are other clubs in the Prem who are more likely to go bust rather than Sarries.

I don't get your logic, you want spending limited by number of fans?!

People buy success in all walks of life, it doesn't guarantee prolonged success. Look at Chelsea in the Prem this year.

However, I think Sarries will continue to do well as they are investing well in youth. For me , that is good for the game as I really want England to do well and we could soon see 7 Sarries players in the England starting XV.

[Hot_Charlie]

But I think you are really wide of the mark with Sarries. They may annoy people with their style of play but they are producing a conveyor belt of high quality English players.

Agreed...

I don't think you can just judge a side on their attendance records. Sarries are investing a lot in their community and academy structure to help them and England in the future.

But at what cost? Is there any hope of them really being a self sustaining business, or will they always rely on a generous owner ready to accept several dozen millions of debt? What was it last reported at - something like £45m?

[Noddy555]

I think Club rugby is in a good place, although I disagree with the salary cap I concede that it has had it's uses. What we need is a two up two down system between the Aviva premiership and the championship. This would not only incentivise the championship but also those clubs like Newcastle, Worcester and Gloucester who continually drift at the bottom of the premiership season after season.

[GS]

The slippery road we are looking down has football at the other end of it. The enormous amounts of money being pumped into the game by TV fees distorts the whole playing field, if you'll excuse the pun. The result has been that the perceived wisdom until this season was that the Premiership could only be won by 4 or 5 clubs with mega bucks to spend.

This season has turned that on it's head with the City one match away from making history with a team whose total worth at the start of the season was less than quite a few of the players they were facing let alone the whole teams. Their team spirit and attitude have overcome 'better' teams, or groups of overpriced preening madonnas as they have been made to look.

The enormous cost of running these teams can only be done with the aid of the owners bank account, sponsorship and TV money. The income from fans is now minimal. There was a, not too serious, suggestion that football fans could have free access to the games and it would hardly affect the balance sheets after the last Sky bid for the rights.

Tigers don't have a sugar daddy owner but money is 'invested' in the club by sponsors and others, and of course the TV money. When Castro looked like being tempted away by big pay days Cockers announced that we had put together 'a package' large enough to keep him here, and there is the clue. The salary cap has been irrelevant for a while.

It seems obvious that the turnstile receipts for Sarries and Wasps can barely cover the running costs of their grounds, let alone the purchase costs and the team wages bills.

What concerns me as pro rugby seems to be edging down the road to join football (I don't think it will ever be as big as football BTW) is the standard of homegrown players. For the best soccer league in the world, allegedly, the national team comes no where near reflecting that quality as most of the big teams' team sheets look more like a UN meeting playing 'spot the British players'.

[h's dad]

But I think you are really wide of the mark with Sarries. They may annoy people with their style of play but they are producing a conveyor belt of high quality English players.

Agreed...

I don't think you can just judge a side on their attendance records. Sarries are investing a lot in their community and academy structure to help them and England in the future.

But at what cost? Is there any hope of them really being a self sustaining business, or will they always rely on a generous owner ready to accept several dozen millions of debt? What was it last reported at - something like £45m?

Saracens' annual losses have fallen from £6m to £4m in the last two years. They would seem to be heading in the right direction financially. The owners say they are in for the long haul and are aiming to make their club self sufficient.

[BengalTiger]

Rugby has allowed itself to become the plaything of the megga rich, just like football, Sarries much trumpeted youth policy has never come under objective scrutiny. How are they able to attract such a depth of young talent, is it just good scouting or is the cheque book being waved about at this early stage. If so it is not new talent they are developing but young talent they are buying.
I do not know where they are getting the young players from, no one seems to question Sarries policy on any front, they probably buy all the rugby journalists very long expensive lunches and so avoid any awkward questions.
It would be interesting to find out the actual money being used to hoover up the best young players for Sarries academy.

[RagingBull]

Rugby has allowed itself to become the plaything of the megga rich, just like football, Sarries much trumpeted youth policy has never come under objective scrutiny. How are they able to attract such a depth of young talent, is it just good scouting or is the cheque book being waved about at this early stage. If so it is not new talent they are developing but young talent they are buying.
I do not know where they are getting the young players from, no one seems to question Sarries policy on any front, they probably buy all the rugby journalists very long expensive lunches and so avoid any awkward questions.
It would be interesting to find out the actual money being used to hoover up the best young players for Sarries academy.

Actually academies have to stick to it's catchment area, unless another clubs academy gets closed i.e. Wasps not long ago where we got Purdy from or a player has been released from another teams academy area i.e. Balmain.

Goode - Signed up when he was 18, after not being offered a contract at Bath academy
Kruis - Wasn't in any academy teams until Sarries pick him up at 18
Itoje - Signed up @ 15 whilst at a school in St Albans (Part of Sarries catchment)
Farrell - Dad was at Saracens.
Spencer - Signed up when he was 18 after he had turned down Exeter to opt to play for Cambridge RFC and go to uni.
George - Catchment are i blieve
Earle - Catchment area
Thompkins - Catchment area

so i believe pretty much all are from scouting.

[champanzie]

As I said the players Sarries are producing are excellent but you are missing the point..

That being that a club with no fans can spend such figures and have such debt..it is sad that whichever team wins so few people will be happy..

The ethos of buying success...trademarked by Toulon in 2013

I dont understand what people have got against Toulon and Saracens. They recruited well and have both been successful. People hating against them because they are winning...
It should not matter how many fans the teams have. If somebody is willing to put money into the team and make them better why penalise them? In my oppinion i think its good that more money is getting pumped into club rugby, you get to see more would class players move over to the premiership.

[WhitecapTiger]

I dont understand what people have got against Toulon and Saracens. They recruited well and have both been successful. People hating against them because they are winning...

I don't hate either. I have a strong dislike for the fawning that surrounds both teams - which the teams cannot be faulted for, but it's nothing to do with "Because they are winning". You do people a disservice by accusing them of that.

Toulon bought their success in my opinion, I shall not celebrate that. They have an owner who spits the dummy when things don't go his way. Wantonly threatening legal action and walkouts. Is it passion? Maybe, but not IMO. Is it petulance? More like it IMO. I don't think it is in the spirit of Rugby though. But hate them? No.

Sarries much less so and they do/have produce some great young English talent, no avoiding that. I just find some of their antics over the years less than tasteful and some of their players, despite ability, are less than savoury IMO. But hate them? No.

[northerntiger]

Rugby has allowed itself to become the plaything of the megga rich, just like football, Sarries much trumpeted youth policy has never come under objective scrutiny. How are they able to attract such a depth of young talent, is it just good scouting or is the cheque book being waved about at this early stage. If so it is not new talent they are developing but young talent they are buying.
I do not know where they are getting the young players from, no one seems to question Sarries policy on any front, they probably buy all the rugby journalists very long expensive lunches and so avoid any awkward questions.
It would be interesting to find out the actual money being used to hoover up the best young players for Sarries academy.

I really don't think you would have to wave the chequebook at young players, all would jump at the chance of going to any prem club. If you are implying they are poached, I think the other clubs would be pretty voiciferous about it.

[TigerCam]

Rugby has allowed itself to become the plaything of the megga rich, just like football, Sarries much trumpeted youth policy has never come under objective scrutiny. How are they able to attract such a depth of young talent, is it just good scouting or is the cheque book being waved about at this early stage. If so it is not new talent they are developing but young talent they are buying.
I do not know where they are getting the young players from, no one seems to question Sarries policy on any front, they probably buy all the rugby journalists very long expensive lunches and so avoid any awkward questions.
It would be interesting to find out the actual money being used to hoover up the best young players for Sarries academy.

Actually academies have to stick to it's catchment area, unless another clubs academy gets closed i.e. Wasps not long ago where we got Purdy from or a player has been released from another teams academy area i.e. Balmain.

Goode - Signed up when he was 18, after not being offered a contract at Bath academy
Kruis - Wasn't in any academy teams until Sarries pick him up at 18
Itoje - Signed up @ 15 whilst at a school in St Albans (Part of Sarries catchment)
Farrell - Dad was at Saracens.
Spencer - Signed up when he was 18 after he had turned down Exeter to opt to play for Cambridge RFC and go to uni.
George - Catchment are i blieve
Earle - Catchment area
Thompkins - Catchment area

so i believe pretty much all are from scouting.

Lets not forget that Bedford are a 'farm' club for Sarries too. Wray and others developing there.