ellis9 wrote:For those who said will win more (meaning trophies) by playing "exciting" rugby, we have gone out of a competition, so not won it.
I think you have misunderstood. We could not win trophies the "old way". There is no guarantee we will trophies the new way but we have a better chance. It is nothing to do with being "exciting", it's to do with giving yourself the best chance of success. And what I said was that in the first season of the change we got further in this competition than we have for a number of years - so that would an argument for the change of style giving us a better chance of success. Note: there maybe other factors.
Cockerill himself has said that he saw the need to change but he has also recognise that there has to be a balance. You only have to look over the road at the footy team who have maintained their quick counter, high risk attacking game whilst improving their defensive capability and tactics to ensure they don't have to score a hatful to win a game.
So I agree with your observation that the new style, any new style, will take time to evolve and develop. But I wouldn't get caught up on the idea that it guarantees or can be purely measured by winning trophies. Getting back to Euro semis and Prem finals is the first step.
G.K wrote:And if I pick the right numbers tomorrow then by this time next week I'll be a millionaire.
Perspective is all about looking at a subject from different angles.
For me, Tigers could quite comfortably have a home AP semi booked and should be in the EC final.
Poor performances at key times have prevented this. That is the disappointing aspect, because other performances suggest that Tigers were easily capable of both.
Last thing I think we need to do is reevaluate our style of play..
Racing defended well put us under pressure and well to be honest we were sloppy.. we played badly and it was really frustrating to watch so many basics go wrong but we have apart from a poor few weeks played better and have laid the foundations for hopefully a great season next year.
What does worry me is our defence, we have really lazy / poor moments 20 mins or so and it happens too often.
With no disrespect to Worcester I do hope some of these guys are rested this week with rotation as we need to take a little breather for the final push in the AP..
covrich wrote:With no disrespect to Worcester I do hope some of these guys are rested this week with rotation as we need to take a little breather for the final push in the AP..
Whilst understanding where you're coming from, the final push in the AP begins with the Worcester match IMO.
Win that and we're OK. Plus, now we haven't made the ERCC Final we'll have a rest week on 14/15 May.
Hopefully seal the playoffs against Wuss, then depending if 3rd is up for grabs (reliant on Exeter result) we can decide how to approach the Bath match, rest a few and give them 2 weeks 'off' or go to Bath with winning intent knowing there's a week off before the playoff semi final.
But that's getting ahead of ourselves....
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.
A win against Worcester is all that is required to qualify for the play offs. No need for a bonus point win as the number of matches won would be greater than Sale, if they were to finish level on points with Tigers.
If 3rd place is up for grabs, the strongest team needs to be put out against Bath and a rest week on 14th.
If 4th is the best that can be achieved, then give some of the squad players a bit of game time and rest a few.
Keeping to the thread title - a bit of perspective - given our inability to compete at the breakdown, and to continually drop the ball or pass it forward - doesn't matter what game plan we used we would have lost.
Basic skills are needed to execute pretty much any game plan. We simply let ourselves down on Sunday and the disappointment is that we know we can do better. Yes the Racing defence was excellent but we made mistakes with very little pressure at times.
My son commented during the game that the constant dropping of the ball was deliberate to allow us to show our scrum dominance ... maybe going back to an older style of play?
I've not posted here before but been supporting tigers for years. Sadly I was at the match yesterday and we were absolutely awful. The really disappointing thing though is cockerill's deluded view of the match and blaming the ref when actually but for the ref we would have lost much more heavily which is what we deserved.
I really don't understand the clubs obsession with Cockerill - in my view the team has got worse every year he has been in charge (we started as 1st place in premiership, then started losing finals, then losing semi finals and now getting close to not even making semi finals - even if we do this year it will just be a certain defeat by Saracens).
I really think we need a change of director of rugby and to get in someone with a proven track record.
chris1978 wrote:I've not posted here before but been supporting tigers for years. Sadly I was at the match yesterday and we were absolutely awful. The really disappointing thing though is cockerill's deluded view of the match and blaming the ref when actually but for the ref we would have lost much more heavily which is what we deserved.
I really don't understand the clubs obsession with Cockerill - in my view the team has got worse every year he has been in charge (we started as 1st place in premiership, then started losing finals, then losing semi finals and now getting close to not even making semi finals - even if we do this year it will just be a certain defeat by Saracens).
I really think we need a change of director of rugby and to get in someone with a proven track record.
Are you sure you've not posted before? Your face is strangely familiar!
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
Wear a Mask>Protect The NHS>Save Lives
chris1978 wrote:I've not posted here before but been supporting tigers for years. Sadly I was at the match yesterday and we were absolutely awful. The really disappointing thing though is cockerill's deluded view of the match and blaming the ref when actually but for the ref we would have lost much more heavily which is what we deserved.
I really don't understand the clubs obsession with Cockerill - in my view the team has got worse every year he has been in charge (we started as 1st place in premiership, then started losing finals, then losing semi finals and now getting close to not even making semi finals - even if we do this year it will just be a certain defeat by Saracens).
I really think we need a change of director of rugby and to get in someone with a proven track record.
Like who? Come on, name this mythical DoR who's going to magically make everything right again.... let's have a name of someone who is available please - because I don't know.
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.
chris1978 wrote:I've not posted here before but been supporting tigers for years. Sadly I was at the match yesterday and we were absolutely awful. The really disappointing thing though is cockerill's deluded view of the match and blaming the ref when actually but for the ref we would have lost much more heavily which is what we deserved.
I really don't understand the clubs obsession with Cockerill - in my view the team has got worse every year he has been in charge (we started as 1st place in premiership, then started losing finals, then losing semi finals and now getting close to not even making semi finals - even if we do this year it will just be a certain defeat by Saracens).
I really think we need a change of director of rugby and to get in someone with a proven track record.
Like who? Come on, name this mythical DoR who's going to magically make everything right again.... let's have a name of someone who is available please - because I don't know.
There is one guy who's been a coach / DoR at his club for 11 years during which time they've topped the league 4 times; won the title 4 times; and appeared in the final 9 times. He represented his club as a player over 250 times - and his country 27 times - so the supporters, players and board, whilst not being obsessed, do hold him in moderately high regard! He's recently been 'big enough' to publicly recognise his own coaching shortcomings; recruit a rather exciting S/H coach who buys into the club's ethos; and play a large part in attracting one of the most exciting squads the club has ever had.
If only we had a DoR like that!
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
Wear a Mask>Protect The NHS>Save Lives
chris1978 wrote:I've not posted here before but been supporting tigers for years. Sadly I was at the match yesterday and we were absolutely awful. The really disappointing thing though is cockerill's deluded view of the match and blaming the ref when actually but for the ref we would have lost much more heavily which is what we deserved.
I really don't understand the clubs obsession with Cockerill - in my view the team has got worse every year he has been in charge (we started as 1st place in premiership, then started losing finals, then losing semi finals and now getting close to not even making semi finals - even if we do this year it will just be a certain defeat by Saracens).
I really think we need a change of director of rugby and to get in someone with a proven track record.
Like who? Come on, name this mythical DoR who's going to magically make everything right again.... let's have a name of someone who is available please - because I don't know.
There is one guy who's been a coach / DoR at his club for 11 years during which time they've topped the league 4 times; won the title 4 times; and appeared in the final 9 times. He represented his club as a player over 250 times - and his country 27 times - so the supporters, players and board, whilst not being obsessed, do hold him in moderately high regard! He's recently been 'big enough' to publicly recognise his own coaching shortcomings; recruit a rather exciting S/H coach who buys into the club's ethos; and play a large part in attracting one of the most exciting squads the club has ever had.
If only we had a DoR like that!
+1 and I've lost count how many times I've had to say similar after anything bar an absolute rout of the opposition! It seems to me some of the fans on here and in the stands and bars are obsessed with Cockers, but only with getting the man sacked. While change isn't necessarily bad, change for it's own sake is rarely good...
No, not that one!
Remember, whatever you do to the smallest of the backs you do to his prop, and you can't avoid the rucks and mauls forever...
I know you don't like it when I boo him but how else will he know he's wrong?
chris1978 wrote:
in my view the team has got worse every year he has been in charge (we started as 1st place in premiership, then started losing finals, then losing semi finals and now getting close to not even making semi finals
A very loose (i.e. false) appraisal of what the actual truth is.
Under Cockerill:
2009: Champions and Heineken Cup Finalists
2010: Champions
2011: Losing Finalists
2012: Losing Finalists
2013: Champions
2014: Semi-finalists
2015: Semi-finalists
2016: Very likely to be at least semi finalists and semi-finalists in European.
Now if you can find me someone else with a better record than that who is available to replace him then I'm listening.
Strawclearer: I agree you will not find anyone who wants Tigers to win More & is Tigers Through & Through anymore than Cockers.
He recognised he didn't have all the skills required & got the best in to ensure that those areas were covered in coaching, players & support staff.
We all knew this season ws going to be a steep learning curve even without the World Cup.
This is what the Guardian journo has to say (my italics):
The Tigers will be stronger for this defeat: their skills did not match their ambition in the heat of battle against opponents who gave almost nothing away in defence, but it was only the fifth time Peter Betham and Manu Tuilagi had partnered each other in the midfield and Freddie Burns hobbled off after making a break at the end of the first-half.
Which does give some proper perspective.
IMHO much of the comment understates Racing's excellence in defence, both in organisation (for all Tigers possession - I'm guessing 60/40 - there was rarely space to exploit outside. They stopped Manu in the centre but kept their outside defence sound) and in the scramble. By and large Tigers couldn't hold on to the ball because their game was forced by the intensity of the defence. You certainly can't fault the team for their effort, they continued to try to play their game right up to the whistle. I don't understand the criticism of the game plan - it was the same as the one that delivered the win over Stade. What else were they supposed to do?
In the end it was a 3 point game with one defensive lapse for the try - a pretty small margin really.
