Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

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The Boy Dave
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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by The Boy Dave » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:09 pm

h's dad

kend wrote:

It's about social meanings and negative stereotyping. Marler's insult carries force because it taps into negative constructions around traveller ethnicity, otherwise there would be no point in him saying it; it just wouldn't have any effect. If I call you an 'English boy', you wouldn't be offended because there aren't really any negative social associations with being labelled 'English'. The same is true of being called an 'English @#@#' on the field; you might be offended by the '@#@#' bit, but not really by being called 'English'.

Disagree profoundly. As examples, English milord or English pouf are pejorative terms that are based on, possibly false, stereotypes where the 'English' is integral to the abuse. Just because we English are more tolerant than Johnny foreigner (and I don't include the Taffs or the Jocks in that because they're basically English as well despite their protestations) it doesn't reduce the integrity of the term of abuse.
Then use combined words such as "Daddy's boy" or "little blessed one" in certain circles and it's frowned upon and in some grown up circles close to home that I know of it's even banned.
I know a coach who often labelled other players as a "Mummy's boy" but could and would not tolerate his son being labelled as "Daddy's boy".
What is not sensitive for some is for others.
I don't care for constant tit for tat but it is what it is.
Some folk are accepting of diversity and get on with it and others want their way constantly.
If you are going to throw punches then expect anything in return, Marler was ignorant to that fact.
If the RFU weren't so ignorant and dealt with this then it would never have got to this stage and Marler would be £20k better off.
Cheery chappy

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by h's dad » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:53 pm

The Boy Dave wrote:
h's dad

kend wrote:

It's about social meanings and negative stereotyping. Marler's insult carries force because it taps into negative constructions around traveller ethnicity, otherwise there would be no point in him saying it; it just wouldn't have any effect. If I call you an 'English boy', you wouldn't be offended because there aren't really any negative social associations with being labelled 'English'. The same is true of being called an 'English @#@#' on the field; you might be offended by the '@#@#' bit, but not really by being called 'English'.

Disagree profoundly. As examples, English milord or English pouf are pejorative terms that are based on, possibly false, stereotypes where the 'English' is integral to the abuse. Just because we English are more tolerant than Johnny foreigner (and I don't include the Taffs or the Jocks in that because they're basically English as well despite their protestations) it doesn't reduce the integrity of the term of abuse.
Then use combined words such as "Daddy's boy" or "little blessed one" in certain circles and it's frowned upon and in some grown up circles close to home that I know of it's even banned.
I know a coach who often labelled other players as a "Mummy's boy" but could and would not tolerate his son being labelled as "Daddy's boy".
That's another example of the hypocrisy I referred to.
The Boy Dave wrote:What is not sensitive for some is for others.
I don't care for constant tit for tat but it is what it is.
According to reports Marler had previously been on the end of some abuse and it really was just a bit of tit for tat that had reduced neither player to tears.
The Boy Dave wrote:Some folk are accepting of diversity and get on with it and others want their way constantly.
And some pay lip service to diversity while constantly wanting their own way.
The Boy Dave wrote:If you are going to throw punches then expect anything in return, Marler was ignorant to that fact.
If the RFU weren't so ignorant and dealt with this then it would never have got to this stage and Marler would be £20k better off.
I agree that Marler was ignorant to the way that this was going to blow up to ridiculous proportions.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by Phil B » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:55 pm

Soggypitch wrote: So when is something racist/offensive and when is it not??
This is my problem, in a nutshell. I grew up in different times, admittedly, and to be fair, we called all sorts of people by various names - it was the way it was, but we didn't mean any harm. For me, discriminatory behaviour, be it on grounds of sex, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or whatever (the list gets longer every year) is only of concern, if my actions result in any kind of harm to that individual. For me, that is where the line is drawn. Before that line, it's just words, just banter. That is why I am fed up with this whole Marler saga. Marler apologised, in my opinion, because he knew that if he didn't, the resultant furore was simply not worth the aggravation. In my view, that is why Gatland apologised for referring the whole affair as simply banter - he simply knew that the aggravation he would get for not doing so was not worth it, and he would not win. The media would have had a field day.
I could agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by Roly » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:47 am

Phil B wrote:
Soggypitch wrote: So when is something racist/offensive and when is it not??
This is my problem, in a nutshell. I grew up in different times, admittedly, and to be fair, we called all sorts of people by various names - it was the way it was, but we didn't mean any harm. For me, discriminatory behaviour, be it on grounds of sex, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or whatever (the list gets longer every year) is only of concern, if my actions result in any kind of harm to that individual. For me, that is where the line is drawn. Before that line, it's just words, just banter. That is why I am fed up with this whole Marler saga. Marler apologised, in my opinion, because he knew that if he didn't, the resultant furore was simply not worth the aggravation. In my view, that is why Gatland apologised for referring the whole affair as simply banter - he simply knew that the aggravation he would get for not doing so was not worth it, and he would not win. The media would have had a field day.
Too late for that, they already did, dragging the PC brigade along with them.
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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by tigercaspian » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:55 am

Does any one know if there is any truth in the rumour that Marler was called a "posh English ***t" just before the incident?

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by biffer » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:56 am

Phil B wrote:
Soggypitch wrote: So when is something racist/offensive and when is it not??
This is my problem, in a nutshell. I grew up in different times, admittedly, and to be fair, we called all sorts of people by various names - it was the way it was, but we didn't mean any harm. For me, discriminatory behaviour, be it on grounds of sex, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or whatever (the list gets longer every year) is only of concern, if my actions result in any kind of harm to that individual. For me, that is where the line is drawn. Before that line, it's just words, just banter. That is why I am fed up with this whole Marler saga. Marler apologised, in my opinion, because he knew that if he didn't, the resultant furore was simply not worth the aggravation. In my view, that is why Gatland apologised for referring the whole affair as simply banter - he simply knew that the aggravation he would get for not doing so was not worth it, and he would not win. The media would have had a field day.
The problem I have with this is you only thinking about harm to the individual. You also have to look at harm done more widely to a group of people.

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by tigercaspian » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:09 am

Lee might gave been a bit miffed by Marler's comment but he was man enough to accept the apology and handshake offered. I doubt that he feels harmed.
As to the wider gypsy/traveller community,I doubt that they feel harmed either as they always keep themselves busy - see my previous comments on Justin Park, Market Harborough

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by h's dad » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:18 am

biffer wrote:
Phil B wrote:
Soggypitch wrote: So when is something racist/offensive and when is it not??
This is my problem, in a nutshell. I grew up in different times, admittedly, and to be fair, we called all sorts of people by various names - it was the way it was, but we didn't mean any harm. For me, discriminatory behaviour, be it on grounds of sex, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or whatever (the list gets longer every year) is only of concern, if my actions result in any kind of harm to that individual. For me, that is where the line is drawn. Before that line, it's just words, just banter. That is why I am fed up with this whole Marler saga. Marler apologised, in my opinion, because he knew that if he didn't, the resultant furore was simply not worth the aggravation. In my view, that is why Gatland apologised for referring the whole affair as simply banter - he simply knew that the aggravation he would get for not doing so was not worth it, and he would not win. The media would have had a field day.
The problem I have with this is you only thinking about harm to the individual. You also have to look at harm done more widely to a group of people.
I'm sure Phil B is man enough not to be upset but I think you might have upset a few people there biffer.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by biffer » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:25 am

h's dad wrote: I'm sure Phil B is man enough not to be upset but I think you might have upset a few people there biffer.
Wow, you're so incredibly clever and funny

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by h's dad » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:49 am

biffer wrote:
h's dad wrote: I'm sure Phil B is man enough not to be upset but I think you might have upset a few people there biffer.
Wow, you're so incredibly clever and funny
It's idiotic but I thought that was the game we're playing.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by biffer » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:51 am

h's dad wrote:
biffer wrote:
h's dad wrote: I'm sure Phil B is man enough not to be upset but I think you might have upset a few people there biffer.
Wow, you're so incredibly clever and funny
It's idiotic but I thought that was the game we're playing.
Yeah, people have genuine opinions about racist language and it's idiotic. Ok, close the thread and let's all vote UKIP.

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by rocktop51 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:03 pm

tigercaspian wrote:Does any one know if there is any truth in the rumour that Marler was called a "posh English ***t" just before the incident?
If so it's a misapprehension - two of them are correct, not sure about the posh. :smt002
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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by h's dad » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:04 pm

biffer wrote:
h's dad wrote:
biffer wrote:<h's dad>
I'm sure Phil B is man enough not to be upset but I think you might have upset a few people there biffer.<>

Wow, you're so incredibly clever and funny
It's idiotic but I thought that was the game we're playing.
Yeah, people have genuine opinions about racist language and it's idiotic. Ok, close the thread and let's all vote UKIP.
It is my genuine opinion that your comment can be stretched beyond reason to be construed as an attack on an English stereotype and and can be deemed offensive in a similar degree to the term used by Marler in the context that it was used and which has been stretched beyond reason.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by biffer » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:39 pm

h's dad wrote: It is my genuine opinion that your comment can be stretched beyond reason to be construed as an attack on an English stereotype and and can be deemed offensive in a similar degree to the term used by Marler in the context that it was used and which has been stretched beyond reason.
Where did I use any English stereotype?

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Re: Job Marler racially abusing a Welsh player? No Sanction

Post by h's dad » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:53 pm

biffer wrote:
h's dad wrote: It is my genuine opinion that your comment can be stretched beyond reason to be construed as an attack on an English stereotype and and can be deemed offensive in a similar degree to the term used by Marler in the context that it was used and which has been stretched beyond reason.
Where did I use any English stereotype?
My perception of a comment made about attitudes to others. When we're all digging deep...
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

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