Kicking for the corner

[Grimlish]

Has some new convention arisen that removes the need for the penalty kick to the corner?

On a couple of occasions Chiefs' scrum half simply threw the ball into touch in a very relaxed manner. (2nd half, shortly before their first try was one example). I didn't see a kick, I don't think it was a re-taken Lineout (is that even an option for a penalty given at a Lineout?).

What am I missing?

[WhitecapTiger]

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=21&language=EN

21.4 Penalty and free kick options and requirements
(a) Scrum alternative. A team awarded a penalty or free kick may choose a scrum instead. They throw in the ball.
(b) Lineout alternative. A team awarded a penalty or a free kick at a lineout may choose a further lineout into which they throw in. This is in addition to the scrum option.

It might be this, not sure, but if they opt for the line out option following a penalty at the line out there's no need to kick for touch. Not sure if instances you refer to were from line out penalties or not.

Just a thought.

[G.K]

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=21&language=EN

21.4 Penalty and free kick options and requirements
(a) Scrum alternative. A team awarded a penalty or free kick may choose a scrum instead. They throw in the ball.
(b) Lineout alternative. A team awarded a penalty or a free kick at a lineout may choose a further lineout into which they throw in. This is in addition to the scrum option.

It might be this, not sure, but if they opt for the line out option following a penalty at the line out there's no need to kick for touch. Not sure if instances you refer to were from line out penalties or not.

Just a thought.

Someone mentioned previously that they changed the rules to allow it to be thrown out rather than kicked out. Only useful if on the 5m line already and not sure what the point of it is.

[trendylfj]

I believe what happened was that they had already indicated by choice, that they wanted another lineout and were just getting rid of a ball which was not going to be used by their hooker for the lineout. In effect a "dead" ball. Every hooker uses a "new, dry ball" supplied by the ball boy/girl for the lineout even when it is a dry day.

[Iain]

I like to think that I stay abreast of rule changes rather well but I must say this one completely passed me by. How long has this been a thing?

[mightymouse]

It was mentioned (by George Chuter I think) on radio leicester. It was when within the 5 metre line. I assume that as you cannot get closer that 5 metres they have brought that in to save time... ie not having to call up the kicker each time. One could say way doesn't anyone just boot it in but I guess there will have been a time when some donkey of a lock who fancied his chances has kicked it dead!

[4071]

It was mentioned (by George Chuter I think) on radio leicester. It was when within the 5 metre line. I assume that as you cannot get closer that 5 metres they have brought that in to save time... ie not having to call up the kicker each time. One could say way doesn't anyone just boot it in but I guess there will have been a time when some donkey of a lock who fancied his chances has kicked it dead!

No idea what Chuter is on about - there is no change in the laws. A penalty kick is exactly that - a kick. It's very specific about that in law 21.4. You can't just throw the ball into touch. I suspect that whitecap and trendy have it right.

[Norfolk & Goode]

10.2 Unfair play
(c)Throwing into touch. A player must not intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with his arm or hand into touch, touch-in-goal, or over the dead ball line.

Never surprises me when another pundit doesn't understand the basic laws, no matter how long or outstanding their career was.

trendylfj has it spot on.

[Iain]

It was mentioned (by George Chuter I think) on radio leicester. It was when within the 5 metre line. I assume that as you cannot get closer that 5 metres they have brought that in to save time... ie not having to call up the kicker each time. One could say way doesn't anyone just boot it in but I guess there will have been a time when some donkey of a lock who fancied his chances has kicked it dead!

No idea what Chuter is on about - there is no change in the laws. A penalty kick is exactly that - a kick. It's very specific about that in law 21.4. You can't just throw the ball into touch. I suspect that whitecap and trendy have it right.

Look at the part of 21.4 that Whitecap posted again. It seems you can now just choose another lineout if the penalty is from the original lineout. No need to kick it.

I'm not sure when this came in as I hadn't noticed at all.

[The Boy Dave]

You can throw it into touch, I've seen it in another game recently but don't recall the game, might have been Saints.
I think it's to try and speed up the process for repeated lineouts where kicking for distance is not needed.

[4071]

It was mentioned (by George Chuter I think) on radio leicester. It was when within the 5 metre line. I assume that as you cannot get closer that 5 metres they have brought that in to save time... ie not having to call up the kicker each time. One could say way doesn't anyone just boot it in but I guess there will have been a time when some donkey of a lock who fancied his chances has kicked it dead!

No idea what Chuter is on about - there is no change in the laws. A penalty kick is exactly that - a kick. It's very specific about that in law 21.4. You can't just throw the ball into touch. I suspect that whitecap and trendy have it right.

Look at the part of 21.4 that Whitecap posted again. It seems you can now just choose another lineout if the penalty is from the original lineout. No need to kick it.

I'm not sure when this came in as I hadn't noticed at all.

Yes, but that's nothing to do with throwing to touch instead of kicking to touch.

[Grimlish]

trendylfj & N&G - it most definitely was not simply about getting a clean/dry ball into the hooker's hands or disposing of a surplus ball.

The instances I saw were at 5 metres from the tryline so Whitecap's knowledge of the laws could cover it. However it did seem that Carley was waiting on the throw out before ordering the new Lineout. Was that just as a signal from Chiefs of their choice, or a requirement/convention?

I've certainly seen kicks (even from 5 metres) go VERY close to the deadball area and I'm sure I've never seen Tigers do the throw. If its an option, why not do it?

And, when does the 'right' to make this choice end? Is it when the ref signals the end of the lineout by lowering his arm? That's one of those 'some refs do, some refs dont' things imo, as quite often you see refs signalling advancing players not in the lineout out of the lineout zone even after they have dropped their arm.

[Iain]

Yes, but that's nothing to do with throwing to touch instead of kicking to touch.

I don't see where it was suggested it needed to be thrown out.

[Grimlish]

I don't see where it was suggested it needed to be thrown out.

Iain I suggested it because that's what I saw happen.

[Norfolk & Goode]

Sometimes when advantage is played a player forces the penalty by deliberately knocking it on to stop play. In this case i'd be surprised if a player deliberately threw the ball into touch as it contravenes law 10.2(c), although a ref could reverse the penalty it would have to be a harsh ref to do so.

Probably the player verbally indicated to the ref once the ball was dead that another lineout was their choice so was just hurling it into touch, either way no biggy.