Umaga England U18

[Knightonian]

Congratulations to Jacob Umaga being picked in the England U18 Squad for Saturday

Could well be one of the next generation of Tigers Superstars come through (fx)

http://www.fifteenrugby.com/england-u18 ... -saturday/

[GS]

Well done and good luck to the lad, good old Wyggy.

[The Boy Dave]

Yes good luck to the lad he is very talented from what I saw last week and you wouldn't bet against him making the physicality of the modern mens game with a name like Umaga would you!

Disappointing though is the amount of independent schools in that squad, once again.
Add in the names like Grayson and Umaga and it doesn't give much hope to the other 90% of the population in state education let alone the amount of lads ignored at grassroots clubs.

[Iain]

Would I be right in saying he could qualify for New Zealand or Samoa too? If he turns out to be as good as we think he could be England might want to get him capped as soon as they can!!

[jgriffin]

Yes good luck to the lad he is very talented from what I saw last week and you wouldn't bet against him making the physicality of the modern mens game with a name like Umaga would you!

Disappointing though is the amount of independent schools in that squad, once again.
Add in the names like Grayson and Umaga and it doesn't give much hope to the other 90% of the population in state education let alone the amount of lads ignored at grassroots clubs.

Dave, it hasn't changed in 30 years. The Blazerati still rule and make the independent schools their first and often only stop. There are many talented players at Colts level who soon disappear from the game because they don't get picked. At least in Wales they actually look at kids from across the spectrum (I have experience of both at u11 through to u18). [Can I save the comments from the usual people who say I have a chip on my shoulder about independent schools? Sorry, I teach and have taught in independent schools as well as state and FE.]

[Farmboy]

TBD I would guess that if the players are good enough to play for England that they would have been offered a scholarship to a private school as Rugby is a dominate sport in private schools and success on the field is much prised.

[jgriffin]

TBD I would guess that if the players are good enough to play for England that they would have been offered a scholarship to a private school as Rugby is a dominate sport in private schools and success on the field is much prised.

Doesn't work like that, at all.

[Farmboy]

JG I have heard stories that headmasters from Independent Schools going round the local rugby clubs on a Sunday morning offering scholarships to the better players.
Also the quote about 10000 hours of practice to make a good player(from American Football) comes into play with most Independent schools providing a lot more training than State schools.

[RagingBull]

Scholarship are given out quite a bit but from my experience it is usually a bigger independent school offering them to the better players of smaller independent schools.

[Tigers Tiger]

I know young players on scholarships, but it still costs the parents several thousand pounds a year to send the children, even on a scholarship. No scholarship is free. I also know others who have had to turn scholarships down because they simply can not afford it.

[The Boy Dave]

I think it's fair to say there are pros and cons in every sense but put simply I just think it's madness to seperate and reduce the player pool so early in a late maturation sport and leaves it vulnerable to bias and mistakes in the clamour for success.
Any opinion you can think of has a pro and a con relating to rugby union, you don't want cons present if you wish to be successful in such a competitive sport.
It's gambling with something the English don't know much about compared to the big SH nations and it's why England have no world class players.
What makes a great schoolboy player is different to what makes a great senior player!

[fortysix]

JGriffin---I can assure you Public Schools who value their Rugby ( and Cricket) do go actively recruiting talented youngsters from State Schools !!!
Its a complete no brainer for both parties
Look at Harrow, and the furore the Parents caused over Gary Ballance

[jgriffin]

JGriffin---I can assure you Public Schools who value their Rugby ( and Cricket) do go actively recruiting talented youngsters from State Schools !!!
Its a complete no brainer for both parties
Look at Harrow, and the furore the Parents caused over Gary Ballance

I know they do but only in a relatively few cases and it tends to be precocious talent that may not mature (as TBD notes). My point is about the vast ignoring of talent that goes on in general. My knowledge of those who weren't ignored relates totally to Wales; players seen at very junior level include Henson, Hook and AWJ (and he was sponsored by his parents while others couldn't afford it). Henson stood out as an U11/12, simply seeing a different game to the other kids when I first saw him play. I have seen others with great talent get passed over for the 'connected' when the Blazerati start selecting at Colts level.

[LE18]

Jgriffin, sorry but I think you are a very biased left wing school person, why do you not give credit to independent schools where parents pay lots of money for their children's education? Independent schools, often have Saturday morning, school classes, late evening school hours so they can play many more hours of sport. Most have experienced teachers, coaches who have played professional or very high level of sport, they devote loads of time coaching on an individual basis, ie Dosser Smith at Oakham, why should their pupils not be put forward, many when playing on a Sunday for their local clubs, show exceptional skills compared to the run of the mill players who attend state schools.

I really do think that you let your biases show and that you do not give credit where it is deserved.

[The Boy Dave]

Jgriffin, sorry but I think you are a very biased left wing school person, why do you not give credit to independent schools

Someone correct me if I am mistaken but I don't think anyone is not giving credit but just being critical of the dominance of independent schools at elite level, and some of the reasoning in selection which is widely known throughout the sport.

parents pay lots of money for their children's education? Independent schools, often have Saturday morning, school classes, late evening school hours so they can play many more hours of sport. Most have experienced teachers, coaches who have played professional or very high level of sport

Parents do pay lots of money, money shouldn't come into who gets opportunities and who doesn't in sport, and scholarships are only so many, an independent school might need a lock and a prop and give scholarships but a centre and a scum half might miss out because the no-one needs them in that particular year, it's very mixed.
I'd add that the prop and lock might not develop as hoped (or were picked because they were bigger and the school needs some junior beef for short term results) whilst the centre and scrum half did, and there might be another prop and lock out there who developed very well in the meantime, but they are lost from the system and the talent is wasted, not always the case as sometimes it'll be vice versa but that's how unpredictable it all is at that age.

they devote loads of time coaching on an individual basis, ie Dosser Smith at Oakham, why should their pupils not be put forward, many when playing on a Sunday for their local clubs, show exceptional skills compared to the run of the mill players who attend state schools

In my experience what seperates the independents from the state lads is not skill but fitness.
They are able to give the impression that they can find or expose space because they are fitter, it's misleading as fitness can be gained and the same space will not be available to them later on in life.
They also often club together which gives them strength in depth.
By the time they reach mens level there is no longer a fitness advantage, no longer a strength advantage, speed is equal or higher, space is less, aggression is higher, desire is higher, power is higher, nous is higher.
Independent school players are far superior in the quality and regularity of the training on offer whilst at independent school and then all those advantages are gone in an instant when they finish, that is the crux of the problem.
They can actually be lacking in nous because their superior fitness, strength in depth and coaching got them all the way through as schoolboys so they never had to learn it to the level required, all those things can be gained apart from the nous.
Also smaller or less fit youngsters who are unattractive at schoolboy age have to use the brain more and work harder, then if they grow or have the opportunity to train to become fitter you could have a more complete player!



Of the England 2003 World Cup Final 23, I was told that 8 were independently schooled, 1 was schooled in South Africa and 14 were from English state schools.
I don't actually know how true this is and I'm not checking it as it was a usually reliable source so don't pull me up entirely if it's not correct.