Quins

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drc_007
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Re: Quins

Post by drc_007 »

The Boy Dave wrote:The backs is a similarly impressive list, Andy Goode, Seru Rabeni, Ollie Smith, Tom Varndell, Leon Lloyd, Geordan Murphy, Dan Hipkiss, Daryl Gibson, Alex T and many more.
I'd say the current backs as impressive (bear in mind the historical list are end of career numbers of caps).

Andy Goode (17 Caps)
Seru Rabeni (30 Caps)
Ollie Smith (5 caps)
Tom Varndell (4 Caps)
Leon Lloyd (5 caps)
Geordan Murphy (74 caps)
Dan Hipkiss (13 caps)
Daryl Gibson (19 caps)
Alex Tuilagi (37 caps)


Ben Youngs (54 Caps)
Freddie Burns (5 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (25 Caps)
Jean de Villiers (109 Caps)
Peter Betham (2 Caps)
Telusa Veainu (8 Caps)
Matt Tait (38 Caps)
Vereniki Goneva (39 Caps)
Seremaia Bai (49 Caps)
The Boy Dave
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Re: Quins

Post by The Boy Dave »

I'd say the current backs as impressive (bear in mind the historical list are end of career numbers of caps).

Andy Goode (17 Caps)
Seru Rabeni (30 Caps)
Ollie Smith (5 caps)
Tom Varndell (4 Caps)
Leon Lloyd (5 caps)
Geordan Murphy (74 caps)
Dan Hipkiss (13 caps)
Daryl Gibson (19 caps)
Alex Tuilagi (37 caps)


Ben Youngs (54 Caps)
Freddie Burns (5 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (25 Caps)
Jean de Villiers (109 Caps)
Peter Betham (2 Caps)
Telusa Veainu (8 Caps)
Matt Tait (38 Caps)
Vereniki Goneva (39 Caps)
Seremaia Bai (49 Caps)
And I'd disagree with you, in terms of the complete package and the stage of their careers as Tigers then those lists don't compare.

I should add, I think Toomua is a top signing all round so it will get better, the only thing that continues to concern me is the forwards as they need some aggressive ball winners in there and not more soft touch footie players, scrum and breakdown comes first and the show pony stuff later, they need to get their priorities right IMO.
Last edited by The Boy Dave on Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheery chappy
wellstiger
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Re: Quins

Post by wellstiger »

As a retired international sportsman, I cannot think of any player in the Tiger camp who would be happy with their team performance over the last few games. ( results not being entirely the issue )
Individually only a handful may be happy with their individual performance, and I believe every one will be soul searching for reasons why. Including the Coaching team. They are professional.
Looking at other teams in the AP we are not alone.
The wheel has not entirely come off, as yet.
The quality of teams in the AP, IMO ,Is not matched by that of the men in the middle with the Yellow shirt and whistle. Rule interpretation varies from one match to the next. It is a shambles.
Same for both teams and those who adapt better get the least penalty count at end of game stats. This is killing Teams at present.
Scrums are not ref'd its a lottery. We require high standards of our players IMO so we must Men In Yellow
I imagine that's what Mr Cockers, Ryan and Mallinder have hinted at over previous few weeks. However I stand by my previous posts. Tigers need more Gerrrrrrrr.... :smt049 :smt049 :smt049
RagingBull
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Re: Quins

Post by RagingBull »

I'm not upset about calling players Journymen but I just don't think it is accurate to describe that team on Friday night as a collection of Journymen.

Maybe describe some players as not up to it maybe, but hardly Journymen (using Dai's definition which G.K. Agreed with).
G.K
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Re: Quins

Post by G.K »

Cagey Tiger wrote:
G.K wrote:
Cagey Tiger wrote:@RB If you can't see it by now it's pointless me trying to explain.

In other words, you haven't got a Scoobie to back up your assertion.
Not you again with more meaningless rubbish. Ok if you insist then I'll explain my view.

Over recent years the recruitment policy of Tigers has clearly changed. The focus now is on recruiting players, mainly from the Southern Hemisphere, who are either not of international standard or were but have now retired and often injured. Thus we end up with a team consisting largely of disparate players who have played in different leagues in different styles and who are here on two year contracts, to top up their pension pots. It's quite easy to identify who they were/are.

For me this approach is clearly not working. With Mauger joining and with the team having less injuries at the start of the season it looked like Tigers might have turned a corner but since Christmas it's evident that performances have been generally poor, even where we have scraped some narrow wins. Tigers are just not getting the basics right any longer, restarts are awful, both ours and theirs, we are giving away scrum penalty after scrum penalty, rucking and mauling is poor, there are too many turnovers. Also as someone mentioned look at the body language of many of the players.

I'd really recommend those that think otherwise watch the last 3 games again.
Your view is fine and, ignoring the irrelevant and meaningless rubbish at the start, one that I agree with a fair amount. However, like a politician, you have given the same non-answer to the original question. If it is so easy to identify who the journeymen are, why won't you do it yourself for our benefit? You don't seem to be worried about people disagreeing with you, so why the obfuscation? And don't say time. It took a lot more time to post your previous answer than it would have to have listed your journeymen.
Well if you understand the definition by Dai then I'll leave it up to you to decide who falls into that category, it's more fun this way.

To be clear I'm not implying those players are necessarily poor players per se (although some of the signings I just don't get) what I'm concerned about is those players that come for two years, achieve little and then move on. I question whether they are really committed to playing for Tigers and it seems to show in the results.

Look at the rotation in the last few years and the current squad and ask yourself whether Tigers are really heading in the right direction?
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.
Hot_Charlie
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Re: Quins

Post by Hot_Charlie »

drc_007 wrote: Ollie Smith (5 caps)
[cough] Should have been 25 or 30 caps. Instead Andy Robinson was in charge.
jgriffin
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Re: Quins

Post by jgriffin »

We are still getting Academy players involved, something that other teams are increasingly doing, saving the big cash for big names who are a mixed bag to say the least.
Had an interesting discussion with Stains-in-law today who is of the view that Tigers losing BOC, MW and OW, and with YBY and Cole in the England camp, have lost their way temporarily just as Stains have a couple of times in the past. We both agree on the critical mass version of teams, i.e. there is so far you go with losing key players (or even ones you don't realise are key)and then things go pear-shaped very rapidly. His original prediction for top 4 was the current top 4 as he thinks Stains and Tigers have significant issues (in their case, coaching)!
[O/T We watched the England/Italy first half again BTW over a coffee, and England were pants for 30 minutes. Agreed Ford is emphatically not international class at present (and no, we agreed neither Myler or Burns will ever be, and that Cipriani has been badly treated).
That represents more agreement than we have ever had!]
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voice of the crumbie
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Re: Quins

Post by voice of the crumbie »

Hot_Charlie wrote:
drc_007 wrote: Ollie Smith (5 caps)
[cough] Should have been 25 or 30 caps. Instead Andy Robinson was in charge.
Ah...Andy Robinson. Wasn't it rumoured that the RFU sent him to a party dressed as a pumpkin in the forlorn hope that at midnight he might turn into a coach :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

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Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!
Roly
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Re: Quins

Post by Roly »

Another poor performance and result. Out of the top four now, and it will be hard to break back in.

London Irish at home next - mark my words, based on current Tigers form, Irish will push them all the way and could take a win. Watched Irish yesterday, their line speed and defence was right up there. A good Exeter side were made to work very hard for that win and took an age to break down the Irish wall. Plus, Irish were a bit unlucky with some of the officiating.

This period of weeks, during the 6N, will define the team's season. This is no temporary blip, this is a poor run of form (and some of us saw it coming a while ago). And despite any rhetoric coming out of the club, they have failed to address the issues.

I can't begin to describe how disappointing this is.
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.
4071
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Re: Quins

Post by 4071 »

drc_007 wrote:
The Boy Dave wrote:The backs is a similarly impressive list, Andy Goode, Seru Rabeni, Ollie Smith, Tom Varndell, Leon Lloyd, Geordan Murphy, Dan Hipkiss, Daryl Gibson, Alex T and many more.
I'd say the current backs as impressive (bear in mind the historical list are end of career numbers of caps).

Andy Goode (17 Caps)
Seru Rabeni (30 Caps)
Ollie Smith (5 caps)
Tom Varndell (4 Caps)
Leon Lloyd (5 caps)
Geordan Murphy (74 caps)
Dan Hipkiss (13 caps)
Daryl Gibson (19 caps)
Alex Tuilagi (37 caps)


Ben Youngs (54 Caps)
Freddie Burns (5 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (25 Caps)
Jean de Villiers (109 Caps)
Peter Betham (2 Caps)
Telusa Veainu (8 Caps)
Matt Tait (38 Caps)
Vereniki Goneva (39 Caps)
Seremaia Bai (49 Caps)
I wonder if there is any significance to the fact that 6 of the first list came through the Leicester Tigers academy, whereas only 2 of the second list did....
grobyman
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Re: Quins

Post by grobyman »

The difficulty with producing lists like these is that the assumption that things do not change. Over the period of time that these players represented the game (and rules) have moved on that require alternate skill sets. At the time that most of the first list were at their peak, Tigers were the strongest probably wealthiest and most professional regarding infrastructure, that time has past and most clubs have either caught up and in one or two cases overtaken.

As much as it grieves me particularly with their recent relocation, Wasps are looking very serious contenders, with their new found wealth and financial support and the depth of their squad, I wouldn't be surprised to see them as the new 'Saracens' over the next few years. They played exceptionally well over the last two weeks and Bath did well to make the score look half respectable at half time. However, in both of these cases there are very few 'home ' academy products in either team.

Time has moved on like it or not, short careers dictate playing time exposure and earn as much as you can as quickly as you can, this will only accelerate; to hark back to the early professional years and late amateur is comparing chalk and cheese and very naïve.
4071
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Re: Quins

Post by 4071 »

grobyman wrote: As much as it grieves me particularly with their recent relocation, Wasps are looking very serious contenders, with their new found wealth and financial support and the depth of their squad, I wouldn't be surprised to see them as the new 'Saracens' over the next few years. They played exceptionally well over the last two weeks and Bath did well to make the score look half respectable at half time. However, in both of these cases there are very few 'home ' academy products in either team.
Yeah - Wasps have gone signing crazy, and even where they have young English players on their books the majority have come from elsewhere (Bristow, McIntyre, Robson, Lozowski, etc.). However, they do still have the likes of Launchbury (24 yrs, 11 apps this season), Jones (24 yrs, 13 apps this season), Daly (23 yrs, 17 apps this season) and Christian Wade (24 yrs, 9 apps this season).

Bath went the same way (Ford, Watson, Auterac, Thomas, etc) but have produced and played the likes of Dunn (23 yrs, 7 apps this season), Ewels (20 yrs, 12 apps this season), Ellis (21 yrs, 8 apps this season), Cook (24 yrs, 14 apps this season), Devoto (22 yrs, 9 apps this season) and Clark (20 yrs, 5 apps this season).

In the same category of young academy-produced players Tigers have Balmain (24 yrs, 17 apps this season), Thacker (21 yrs, 12 apps this season) and Tuilagi (24 yrs, 4 apps this season). The likes of Catchpole, Brugnara and Pasquali have featured as well, but very infrequently - 8 appearances between the three of them.
Cagey Tiger
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Re: Quins

Post by Cagey Tiger »

G.K wrote:Well if you understand the definition by Dai then I'll leave it up to you to decide who falls into that category, it's more fun this way.

To be clear I'm not implying those players are necessarily poor players per se (although some of the signings I just don't get) what I'm concerned about is those players that come for two years, achieve little and then move on. I question whether they are really committed to playing for Tigers and it seems to show in the results.

Look at the rotation in the last few years and the current squad and ask yourself whether Tigers are really heading in the right direction?
More obfuscation and no answer to the question. Who I feel may fit Dai's definition is neither here nor there. You have been asked to provide some names to back up your sweeping generalisation 3 times. 3 times you have prevaricated. I can only assume, to paraphrase my original post, that you don't have any. Defending the indefensible is difficult isn't it? :smt002
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Re: Quins

Post by G.K »

Cagey Tiger wrote:
G.K wrote:Well if you understand the definition by Dai then I'll leave it up to you to decide who falls into that category, it's more fun this way.

To be clear I'm not implying those players are necessarily poor players per se (although some of the signings I just don't get) what I'm concerned about is those players that come for two years, achieve little and then move on. I question whether they are really committed to playing for Tigers and it seems to show in the results.

Look at the rotation in the last few years and the current squad and ask yourself whether Tigers are really heading in the right direction?
More obfuscation and no answer to the question. Who I feel may fit Dai's definition is neither here nor there. You have been asked to provide some names to back up your sweeping generalisation 3 times. 3 times you have prevaricated. I can only assume, to paraphrase my original post, that you don't have any. Defending the indefensible is difficult isn't it? :smt002
What you ask for and what you get are two different things, I don't dance to your tune.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.
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Re: Quins

Post by Cagey Tiger »

G.K wrote:
Cagey Tiger wrote:
G.K wrote:Well if you understand the definition by Dai then I'll leave it up to you to decide who falls into that category, it's more fun this way.

To be clear I'm not implying those players are necessarily poor players per se (although some of the signings I just don't get) what I'm concerned about is those players that come for two years, achieve little and then move on. I question whether they are really committed to playing for Tigers and it seems to show in the results.

Look at the rotation in the last few years and the current squad and ask yourself whether Tigers are really heading in the right direction?
More obfuscation and no answer to the question. Who I feel may fit Dai's definition is neither here nor there. You have been asked to provide some names to back up your sweeping generalisation 3 times. 3 times you have prevaricated. I can only assume, to paraphrase my original post, that you don't have any. Defending the indefensible is difficult isn't it? :smt002
What you ask for and what you get are two different things, I don't dance to your tune.
People generally answer reasonable questions when they are posed, out of common courtesy, especially when the question is basically asking for clarification of something they have said. What you do is up to you, and what others think about it is up to them.
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