northerntiger wrote:Fair points. I made a couple of sweeping statements which were wildly inaccurate.
But my point still stands. Hartley is not the form hooker in the league, so under Jones criteria he should not be captain.
Regardless of form, if fit, Hartley is England's 1st choice hooker. That was always going to be the case.
Its a no-brainer, providing he can maintain discipline. After that, its George - again, a no-brainer. George is having a great season. Could be ahead of Hartley for many, and it could be argued well.
After that, its OTY I'd say. On the other hand, Leicester have now been given the opportunity to hang on to him during the international window. With two very good hookers in the England camp already, and with OTY at his club, then its a win-win for England and Tigers supporters alike.
Be careful what you wish for.
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.
northerntiger wrote:Why is it a no brainer? It is definitely debatable whether Hartley is first choice hooker, as you seem to agree in your post.
In a nutshell, he has the international experience.
Its all very well making the straw man argument that he isn't been first choice hooker at his club when in actual fact he still is. He's been injured and is being phased back in to the team. Much as Manu has been.
It is debateable whether George is ahead of him or not. But to suggest Hartley isn't right for the job is plain wrong.
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.
northerntiger wrote:Why is it a no brainer? It is definitely debatable whether Hartley is first choice hooker, as you seem to agree in your post.
In a nutshell, he has the international experience.
Its all very well making the straw man argument that he isn't been first choice hooker at his club when in actual fact he still is. He's been injured and is being phased back in to the team. Much as Manu has been.
It is debateable whether George is ahead of him or not. But to suggest Hartley isn't right for the job is plain wrong.
Disagree.
Saints saw fit to remove the captaincy from him. Another red card and another citing and ban didn't help him.
Also in the biggest game of his club's history he lost his discipline, verbally abused the referee and condemned his team to playing the second half with 14 men.
To suggest that to say he's not captain material is plain wrong is somewhat blinkered. His discipline has let him and his team down several times and does not display leadership qualities.
I'd have him in the squad but absolutely no way as captain.
northerntiger wrote:Why is it a no brainer? It is definitely debatable whether Hartley is first choice hooker, as you seem to agree in your post.
In a nutshell, he has the international experience.
Its all very well making the straw man argument that he isn't been first choice hooker at his club when in actual fact he still is. He's been injured and is being phased back in to the team. Much as Manu has been.
It is debateable whether George is ahead of him or not. But to suggest Hartley isn't right for the job is plain wrong.
Disagree.
Saints saw fit to remove the captaincy from him. Another red card and another citing and ban didn't help him.
Also in the biggest game of his club's history he lost his discipline, verbally abused the referee and condemned his team to playing the second half with 14 men.
To suggest that to say he's not captain material is plain wrong is somewhat blinkered. His discipline has let him and his team down several times and does not display leadership qualities.
I'd have him in the squad but absolutely no way as captain.
But I'm not stopping supporting England.
Is Jones REALLY going to name Hartley as Captain though... or is it just a bluff? I wasn't suggesting that Hartley was the right man for the job as Captain, my position is that he's right for the job at hooker. no more or less.
Who isn't supporting England based on a team selection?
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.
Big Dai wrote:I'm supporting Wales! Apologies to Ben, Manu and Dan.
Really?
Hartley wouldn't have been my first choice, but you are saying that the choice of captain is enough to make you change your allegiance?
He may be a bit of rogue, and not our favourite person for all sorts of reasons, but he is hardly the devil incarnate!
Well he aint the Messiah either (Waits for Python quotes!) Actually There's only one team worth supporting during the 6 nations. And that's the Tigers!
Exile Wigstonite living in Wales.
Poet laureate of the "One Eyed Turk".
Bar stool philosopher in the "Wilted Daffodil"
The decision has been made, and there is nothing we can do.
We all know who the best English hooker is.
Many of us are appalled that Hartley is being considered based on two reasons. He is certainly not the best hooker at Saints - don't take it from me, ask the Saints fans. Also, he has a tendency to go into his shell when things don't go well, and really lacks leadership skills in those situations.
As an Englishman I hope he does well, but I fear that he won't.
Its not ridiculous. Ashton has proved his credentials and qualities required by England last week, so has Hartley in the past and, Clarke once fit will be fast tracked. Perhaps Tom Youngs need to bite or punch someone this weekend to prove he has what it takes.
Hartley wasn't ditched as captain at saints! He gave the captaincy up after he discussed it with Mallinder, a fact upheld by Mallinder after it was announced but hey why let the truth get in the way of a good lie??
JohnI wrote:Hartley wasn't ditched as captain at saints! He gave the captaincy up after he discussed it with Mallinder, a fact upheld by Mallinder after it was announced but hey why let the truth get in the way of a good lie??
So he found himself unfit to be captain of a club side?
I really have had enough of the RFU et al. The world cup was a farce. Now the selection is a farce... dropping OTY, not picking Cips but picking Farrell, and now making Hartley captain. EJ will probably pick Manu out of position (at 12) as well. IMHO this is a waste as at 12 he will be used just as a battering ram. Manu is better than that, and when he has space (at 13), he is far more effective. Even though I was born in Leicester, and will remain a Tigers fan until the day I die, I have lived closer to France for the last 15 years, I have ordered my French shirt for the 6N. England will probably come 3rd or 4th. I've just had enough.
