Mat wrote:For me there are a few issues here:
First Eddie jones need to show all England players it's a new era new broom what ever happened in the past is the past. What better way of doing it then picking hartley. He has to vanish the over controlled school teacher gentle era we need the bad boys to win.
Secondly England's pack has been at best good to average for a while now a needs edge and bite hartley has that in spades. He will go over that edge as we know but do did several of the 2003 winning pack Johnson especially on many many occasions.
Thirdly hartley is the best line out thrower and technical hooker in the country. One 6 nations when he was the starting hooker he was nearly 100% for the series!
lastly I think he don't be captain by the next wc it's to make a statement now so let's all get behind Eddie who is a top coach and get behind the country. I am expecting England to turn the corner under eddies like tigers have under manger there will be bad days like us at sardines but also great days as we build to the next we. Come on England
I think I agree with the sentiment here (if perhaps not some of the dodgy spelling!!!!)
Hartley's got dog and bite (no pun intended). Several commentators mentioned his selection in a positive light this weekend. His selection certainly isn't being seen as regressive by those in the know.
England need a raw edge, an enforcer, a pack that bullies. Under Lancaster, they became predictable, lacked oomph and were bested quite often when it mattered.
Hartley at least gives you some teeth. George is an admirable back-up.
My concern is Cole, who is demonstrably well past his sell-by date now.
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.
It's easy to suggest Cole is pat his best but recent performances by him suggest England got their conditioning of the pack wrong.
Compounded with Marler struggling at top level and at least one of the second rows playing with injury (Lawes who probably isn't a great scrummager at his best)
Cole has looked pretty solid recently and put him in a decent pack things would look rather different.
Mat wrote:For me there are a few issues here:
First Eddie jones need to show all England players it's a new era new broom what ever happened in the past is the past. What better way of doing it then picking hartley. He has to vanish the over controlled school teacher gentle era we need the bad boys to win.
Secondly England's pack has been at best good to average for a while now a needs edge and bite hartley has that in spades. He will go over that edge as we know but do did several of the 2003 winning pack Johnson especially on many many occasions.
Thirdly hartley is the best line out thrower and technical hooker in the country. One 6 nations when he was the starting hooker he was nearly 100% for the series!
lastly I think he don't be captain by the next wc it's to make a statement now so let's all get behind Eddie who is a top coach and get behind the country. I am expecting England to turn the corner under eddies like tigers have under manger there will be bad days like us at sardines but also great days as we build to the next we. Come on England
I think I agree with the sentiment here (if perhaps not some of the dodgy spelling!!!!)
My concern is Cole, who is demonstrably well past his sell-by date now.
Strangely in my opinion Hartley is well past his sell-by date but unlike Cole he has demonstrably only ever reached the heights of notoriety both on and off the pitch.
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity
Roly not only do I not agree with his selection, I am of the view that this individual should have received a life ban from the game a couple of years ago because he lacks the morality needed to participate in the modern game in a position of authority. He is no example to youngsters who wish to take up the sport and if the lily livered stuffed shirts who control our game had stood up to this thug 2 years ago, it would have sent a message round participating sportsmen that if you cross the red line you will be very severely punished. This example should have been set years ago aka all black Colin Meads.
Cardiff Tig wrote:When was the last time that Hartley let England down exactly when playing for them? I can't remember any recent time. He may have been banned for Saints, but Johnson and Corry were no angels - I remember Corry being sent off for elbowing someone in the face (Richard Hill I think, could be wrong though!) - and no one complained about them being captain.
I think being banned is letting your side down be that club or country.
At the world cup England were hardly awash with hookers and to loose your most experienced one just before the tournament is letting the side down!
I don't think the disciplinary record of Johnson and Corry combined would coma any where close to the length of time Hartley has missed with bans.
I don't buy into this enforcer garbage. Physicality is essential in the modern game and a refusal to be bullied by the physical confrontation. The days of getting away with a retaliatory punch are gone, too many cameras. You have to be physical within the laws and the idea you you need a player in the side who dishes out retribution is just a recipe for cards and bans.
Noddy555 wrote:Roly not only do I not agree with his selection, I am of the view that this individual should have received a life ban from the game a couple of years ago because he lacks the morality needed to participate in the modern game in a position of authority. He is no example to youngsters who wish to take up the sport and if the lily livered stuffed shirts who control our game had stood up to this thug 2 years ago, it would have sent a message round participating sportsmen that if you cross the red line you will be very severely punished. This example should have been set years ago aka all black Colin Meads.
There are lots of players who have transgressed - Callum Clarke for example. However, he served his time, he's moved on. They've all moved on. If you gave life bans to all the players who you 'thought' should receive them because they lack what you perceive to be the 'morality' to participate in the game, there'd be a lot of players missing.
Fortunately, there is an adequate disciplinary structure in place and naughty players are punished accordingly.
Wishing Hartley would get injured is crass and unnecessary.
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.
Cardiff Tig wrote:When was the last time that Hartley let England down exactly when playing for them? I can't remember any recent time. He may have been banned for Saints, but Johnson and Corry were no angels - I remember Corry being sent off for elbowing someone in the face (Richard Hill I think, could be wrong though!) - and no one complained about them being captain.
I think being banned is letting your side down be that club or country.
At the world cup England were hardly awash with hookers and to loose your most experienced one just before the tournament is letting the side down!
I don't think the disciplinary record of Johnson and Corry combined would coma any where close to the length of time Hartley has missed with bans.
I don't buy into this enforcer garbage. Physicality is essential in the modern game and a refusal to be bullied by the physical confrontation. The days of getting away with a retaliatory punch are gone, too many cameras. You have to be physical within the laws and the idea you you need a player in the side who dishes out retribution is just a recipe for cards and bans.
Its hardly garbage. And you're misinterpreting what the term means.
We're not talking about a player dishing out retribution, you know, like OTY tried to do this weekend. We're talking about a player who can enforce his will and the team's game plan on the opposition. Fronting up physically is part of that but when was the last time Hartley punched anyone in an international (or any other for that matter) match?
Hartley has much more about him in this 'enforcing' respect than OTY, that's for sure.
I heard at least two well respected ex players use the term with regards to Hartley this weekend alone. The Boks actively pushed the concept with players like Matfield and Botha.
Its not garbage.
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.
Well Roly we will wait and see if Hartley has matured into an adult, but what's the betting he will cause some misdemeanour resulting in a card of some colour or by talking back to a ref before the 6 nations campaign is over. Incidentally re Calum Clarke he too should have received a life ban for breaking Rob Hawkins elbow. The 32 week ban he got is nowhere near enough. I would have felt exactly the same way if it were two tigers players that we are talking about. Crass and cruel I may be but sometimes actions speak louder than words.
The Thug (new England captain) has been banned for 54 weeks during his career and counting (true as of 30th May 2015)
::April 2007 – banned for 26 weeks after being cited for eye-gouging Wasps forwards James Haskell and Jonny O’Connor.
:: March 2012 – received an eight-week suspension after being cited for biting Ireland forward Stephen Ferris’ finger while playing for England in a Six Nations game.
:: December 2012 – banned for two weeks after being cited for punching Ulster hooker Rory Best during a Heineken Cup match.
:: May 2013 – sent off for verbally abusing referee Wayne Barnes during the Aviva Premiership final against Leicester at Twickenham. Received an 11-week suspension that sidelined him for the British and Irish Lions tour to Australia which he had been selected for.
:: December 2014 – sent off for elbowing Leicester centre Matt Smith in the face. Banned for three weeks.
:: May 2015 – banned for four weeks after headbutting Saracens’ Jamie George in Northampton’s 29-24 Aviva Premiership semi-final defeat to Saracens.
So..
4 post match citings
13 yellow cards for Northampton
3 yellow Cards for England - Only 1 player has more
26 Weeks ban for gouging two different players
8 weeks for biting
2 weeks for punching
11 weeks for abusing a match official - Missing 2013 Lions Tour
3 weeks for elbowing
4 weeks for head butting - Missing 2015 World Cup
Not even the current first choice hooker for his club.
What a superb role model for all aspiring English children.
Pellsey wrote:The Thug (new England captain) has been banned for 54 weeks during his career and counting (true as of 30th May 2015)
::April 2007 – banned for 26 weeks after being cited for eye-gouging Wasps forwards James Haskell and Jonny O’Connor.
:: March 2012 – received an eight-week suspension after being cited for biting Ireland forward Stephen Ferris’ finger while playing for England in a Six Nations game.
:: December 2012 – banned for two weeks after being cited for punching Ulster hooker Rory Best during a Heineken Cup match.
:: May 2013 – sent off for verbally abusing referee Wayne Barnes during the Aviva Premiership final against Leicester at Twickenham. Received an 11-week suspension that sidelined him for the British and Irish Lions tour to Australia which he had been selected for.
:: December 2014 – sent off for elbowing Leicester centre Matt Smith in the face. Banned for three weeks.
:: May 2015 – banned for four weeks after headbutting Saracens’ Jamie George in Northampton’s 29-24 Aviva Premiership semi-final defeat to Saracens.
So..
4 post match citings
13 yellow cards for Northampton
3 yellow Cards for England - Only 1 player has more
26 Weeks ban for gouging two different players
8 weeks for biting
2 weeks for punching
11 weeks for abusing a match official - Missing 2013 Lions Tour
3 weeks for elbowing
4 weeks for head butting - Missing 2015 World Cup
Not even the current first choice hooker for his club.
What a superb role model for all aspiring English children.
So what?
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.
Pellsey wrote:The Thug (new England captain) has been banned for 54 weeks during his career and counting (true as of 30th May 2015)
::April 2007 – banned for 26 weeks after being cited for eye-gouging Wasps forwards James Haskell and Jonny O’Connor.
:: March 2012 – received an eight-week suspension after being cited for biting Ireland forward Stephen Ferris’ finger while playing for England in a Six Nations game.
:: December 2012 – banned for two weeks after being cited for punching Ulster hooker Rory Best during a Heineken Cup match.
:: May 2013 – sent off for verbally abusing referee Wayne Barnes during the Aviva Premiership final against Leicester at Twickenham. Received an 11-week suspension that sidelined him for the British and Irish Lions tour to Australia which he had been selected for.
:: December 2014 – sent off for elbowing Leicester centre Matt Smith in the face. Banned for three weeks.
:: May 2015 – banned for four weeks after headbutting Saracens’ Jamie George in Northampton’s 29-24 Aviva Premiership semi-final defeat to Saracens.
So..
4 post match citings
13 yellow cards for Northampton
3 yellow Cards for England - Only 1 player has more
26 Weeks ban for gouging two different players
8 weeks for biting
2 weeks for punching
11 weeks for abusing a match official - Missing 2013 Lions Tour
3 weeks for elbowing
4 weeks for head butting - Missing 2015 World Cup
Not even the current first choice hooker for his club.
What a superb role model for all aspiring English children.
So what?
Strangely some people would argue that the disciplinary record of the captain of England matters. Absolute joke of a decision from Jones. The first Kiwi captain of England? The rest of the rugby world must be laughing at us.
