Captain Hartley

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mol2
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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by mol2 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:47 am

A number of Saints fans no longer think he's the best English hooker at Saints.

England are in a difficult place following the scrum capitulating at the world cup. For years most international sides have avoided competing with England at the scrum on the assumption that it was a poor option to take on the likes of Cole.
However France demonstrated in the warm up game that the apparent power of the England pack was no more.

England have had to show they have made changes. Sadly there don't seem to be many (any) options at loose head where the problem lies so Tom Youngs gets sacrificed at hooker. Unfortunately he seems to have been ousted for one who is not considered to be a heavyweight scrummager either although a more similar height to the props which might be a benefit.
Sadly by making Hartley captain they have closed off the option to go for a big lump (Jamie George) who looks to be the future. Whilst I rate Cowan-Dickie as another good prospect he too is finding the transition to the premiership harder this season.

My hookers for the 6N would have been George to start and OTY to come on for impact where is physicality in the loose could be best exploited at this level, rather than have that sucked out of him scrummaging. (A bit like Schalk Britts - a demon in the loose but blunted if he is made to scrummage which is why he hasn't played as much as he might have for SA)

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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by Noddy555 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:56 am

If Hartley is named captain, I will not watch the England games in the six nations, I'll probably switch my allegiance to Ireland. The man is a walking nightmare in both terms of leadership and moral discipline and behaviour, he isn't even the first choice hooker at the Saints. Still Northampton have one more match before Monday so let's keep our fingers crossed.

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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by jgriffin » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:12 pm

mol2 wrote:A number of Saints fans no longer think he's the best English hooker at Saints.

England are in a difficult place following the scrum capitulating at the world cup. For years most international sides have avoided competing with England at the scrum on the assumption that it was a poor option to take on the likes of Cole.
However France demonstrated in the warm up game that the apparent power of the England pack was no more.

England have had to show they have made changes. Sadly there don't seem to be many (any) options at loose head where the problem lies so Tom Youngs gets sacrificed at hooker. Unfortunately he seems to have been ousted for one who is not considered to be a heavyweight scrummager either although a more similar height to the props which might be a benefit.
Sadly by making Hartley captain they have closed off the option to go for a big lump (Jamie George) who looks to be the future. Whilst I rate Cowan-Dickie as another good prospect he too is finding the transition to the premiership harder this season.

My hookers for the 6N would have been George to start and OTY to come on for impact where is physicality in the loose could be best exploited at this level, rather than have that sucked out of him scrummaging. (A bit like Schalk Britts - a demon in the loose but blunted if he is made to scrummage which is why he hasn't played as much as he might have for SA)
Spot on. It will be interesting to see what happens - it will take half a match for the other nations to work out what is going on....I suspect we will see Fazlet play and a territorial game be adopted initially on the 'don't lose' basis, not a million miles away from previous.
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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by Maidman » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:19 pm

Noddy555 wrote:If Hartley is named captain, I will not watch the England games in the six nations, I'll probably switch my allegiance to Ireland. The man is a walking nightmare in both terms of leadership and moral discipline and behaviour, he isn't even the first choice hooker at the Saints. Still Northampton have one more match before Monday so let's keep our fingers crossed.
So Big Dai is going to switch allegiance to Wales, Pellsey to France, and Noddy to Ireland.

I understand the frustration I really do, but isn't this a bit of an over reaction? To turn our backs on our national team?

I've got a feeling that England might do quite well this year. It's going to be interesting.

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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by Big Dai » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:50 pm

Maidman wrote:
Noddy555 wrote:If Hartley is named captain, I will not watch the England games in the six nations, I'll probably switch my allegiance to Ireland. The man is a walking nightmare in both terms of leadership and moral discipline and behaviour, he isn't even the first choice hooker at the Saints. Still Northampton have one more match before Monday so let's keep our fingers crossed.
So Big Dai is going to switch allegiance to Wales, Pellsey to France, and Noddy to Ireland.

I understand the frustration I really do, but isn't this a bit of an over reaction? To turn our backs on our national team?

I've got a feeling that England might do quite well this year. It's going to be interesting.
I think I've changed perspective as the game has evolved and I've got older? Supporting Tigers is a no-brainer. It's where I'm from. But I used to support a settled side. My favourite players stayed with my favourite club. I follow the people I like in rugby, so lately I've been following TTF, Salvs and Geoff at Exeter, Castro is always good box office. I know, I know he doesn't like Cockers...............but so what? We had a number of Tigers playing for England. Wig, Garforth, Johnno, cockers himself, Back, Corry, Moody, Ellis, Floody..........players who stayed with us for a long time and played for England for a long time. Now fewer of my favourites play for England and it would appear some of my pantomime villains are about to take centre stage.............Wales is perhaps a bridge too far ........almost literally! But am I bothered? really? With Dullun as skipper?
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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by WhitecapTiger » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:57 pm

All this chatter and yet, no definitive statement that the Jam boy IS named as England captain, merely speculation and 'leaks', 'hints' and 'guesses' from journos who think they're important in the big scheme of things.

It may come to pass of course but until then it's just wind and hot air.

I'll support the Jocks :smt023
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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by jgriffin » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:55 pm

I'll continue to support Tigers and show lukewarm interest over the England team. My England is the green countryside I love to walk, the wild hills, the different regions in different seasons, regional music, food and speech - not a sports team. Tigers are now my only real sports interest apart from the local teams here; athletics died long ago with the drugs situation. So no allegiance to switch, my nationalism (and internationalism) is a serious political business and nowt to do with sports.
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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by Cardiff Tig » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:18 pm

When was the last time that Hartley let England down exactly when playing for them? I can't remember any recent time. He may have been banned for Saints, but Johnson and Corry were no angels - I remember Corry being sent off for elbowing someone in the face (Richard Hill I think, could be wrong though!) - and no one complained about them being captain.

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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by Skin_and_Muscle » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:23 pm

jgriffin wrote:I'll continue to support Tigers and show lukewarm interest over the England team. My England is the green countryside I love to walk, the wild hills, the different regions in different seasons, regional music, food and speech - not a sports team. Tigers are now my only real sports interest apart from the local teams here; athletics died long ago with the drugs situation. So no allegiance to switch, my nationalism (and internationalism) is a serious political business and nowt to do with sports.
I agree, if anything has put me off supporting England it's the sickening commercialisation of patriotism and the excessive gratification of corporate and casual carousers, not the rugby itself. It's unedifying and embarrassing.
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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by Pellsey » Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:02 pm

Big Dai wrote: I think I've changed perspective as the game has evolved and I've got older? Supporting Tigers is a no-brainer. It's where I'm from. But I used to support a settled side. My favourite players stayed with my favourite club. I follow the people I like in rugby, so lately I've been following TTF, Salvs and Geoff at Exeter, Castro is always good box office. I know, I know he doesn't like Cockers...............but so what? We had a number of Tigers playing for England. Wig, Garforth, Johnno, cockers himself, Back, Corry, Moody, Ellis, Floody..........players who stayed with us for a long time and played for England for a long time. Now fewer of my favourites play for England and it would appear some of my pantomime villains are about to take centre stage.............Wales is perhaps a bridge too far ........almost literally! But am I bothered? really? With Dullun as skipper?
This is how I feel too. But it is more than this. I don't live in England nor have done for a long time. I actually do not enjoy being in England any more (apart from Welford Road.) The English rugby team was actually the last part of my Englishness. I do not feel English any more. I will no longer have a UK passport soon.

But hey, there is still time for the Thug to revert to type. Maybe just as Ashton did, for gouging. He has, afterall, been banned from this before.

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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by Isambard » Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:41 pm

Was ever there such a lot of words on so many platforms before any factual content is known?
Eddie needs some wins under his belt and then he will have a couple of years to experiment with the talent available.

Listening to the Scarlets game now.

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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by Mat » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:41 am

For me there are a few issues here:
First Eddie jones need to show all England players it's a new era new broom what ever happened in the past is the past. What better way of doing it then picking hartley. He has to vanish the over controlled school teacher gentle era we need the bad boys to win.
Secondly England's pack has been at best good to average for a while now a needs edge and bite hartley has that in spades. He will go over that edge as we know but do did several of the 2003 winning pack Johnson especially on many many occasions.
Thirdly hartley is the best line out thrower and technical hooker in the country. One 6 nations when he was the starting hooker he was nearly 100% for the series!


lastly I think he don't be captain by the next wc it's to make a statement now so let's all get behind Eddie who is a top coach and get behind the country. I am expecting England to turn the corner under eddies like tigers have under manger there will be bad days like us at sardines but also great days as we build to the next we. Come on England

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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by Cagey Tiger » Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:44 am

Mat wrote:lastly I think he don't be captain by the next wc it's to make a statement now so let's all get behind Eddie who is a top coach and get behind the country. I am expecting England to turn the corner under eddies like tigers have under manger there will be bad days like us at sardines but also great days as we build to the next we. Come on England
I think a combination of mental decay (alcohol induced given the time of the post?) and autocorrect set in here :smt003

Sardines? Love it :smt044

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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by Maidman » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:09 am

Mat wrote:For me there are a few issues here:
First Eddie jones need to show all England players it's a new era new broom what ever happened in the past is the past. What better way of doing it then picking hartley. He has to vanish the over controlled school teacher gentle era we need the bad boys to win.
Secondly England's pack has been at best good to average for a while now a needs edge and bite hartley has that in spades. He will go over that edge as we know but do did several of the 2003 winning pack Johnson especially on many many occasions.
Thirdly hartley is the best line out thrower and technical hooker in the country. One 6 nations when he was the starting hooker he was nearly 100% for the series!


lastly I think he don't be captain by the next wc it's to make a statement now so let's all get behind Eddie who is a top coach and get behind the country. I am expecting England to turn the corner under eddies like tigers have under manger there will be bad days like us at sardines but also great days as we build to the next we. Come on England

I think I agree with the sentiment here (if perhaps not some of the dodgy spelling!!!!)

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Re: Captain Hartley

Post by Roly » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:56 am

Doghashadhisday wrote:
Bill W (2) wrote:Richie backs Hartley! this is ridiculous!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35385719
Its not ridiculous. Ashton has proved his credentials and qualities required by England last week, so has Hartley in the past and, Clarke once fit will be fast tracked. Perhaps Tom Youngs need to bite or punch someone this weekend to prove he has what it takes. :smt003
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