Return from the dark side.

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Smudge
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Return from the dark side.

Post by Smudge »

Just back from yet another great game at WR.
I haven't had much to praise in the last few years, certainly with the game we
played and the confidence, or lack of it, I felt in the coaching.
I don't mind saying now that at last we have a team playing in the manner worthy
of our great club and it's traditions. The difference is outstanding.
What is more, there is a great feeling of optimism about our future and potential.

We now have some of the most exciting players since the Johnson era, the facilities are improving by the day and the academy is in good hands again.
It is very pleasing to approach Christmas in this manner.
To all my friends in the club, the forum, (yes even the cock-eyed optimist north
of the border), here's wishing you all a happy and peaceful Christmas and a happy new year.

(I still miss the BaBa's game on boxing day, but you can't have it all!!)
A life long Tiger
Sajerj
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by Sajerj »

There seems to be a spirit back within the team that had perhaps dissappeared a little in the last couple of seasons. All top teams need it, and its good to see it back at Tigers. I think the team has a long way to go in terms of quality, but it will come as players settle further.
tigercaspian
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by tigercaspian »

Shamelessly copying from the Unoffy, does this post give us a clue why that spirit is back ?-

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read ... 6,15459000
Bunchy
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by Bunchy »

One of the players mentioned there was Jamie Gibson - very unpopular within the playing ranks.....
Less is more....
Doghashadhisday
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by Doghashadhisday »

Bunchy wrote:One of the players mentioned there was Jamie Gibson - very unpopular within the playing ranks.....
If that's the case he will fit in nicely with the culture at Saints :smt003
mol2
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by mol2 »

To hell with popularity. These players are professionals. It's their job and whether or not you share the views of your fellow employees or even like them is secondary. Yes as a professional you have to implement the strategy set by your employer (in this case the coaches) but this is not recreational sport so it's doubtful any individual will get on with all of his squad members.

It's quite easy to understand why Gibson left.
Tigers were playing garbage at times last season - because of coaching, injuries and some strange selections.
For the first half of the season Gibson had been our outstanding player only to find himself dropped for a big game for a half fit Croft.
For an ambitions young player hoping for England recognition it just indicates you have no future with the club.

Over the past few years we have seen too many players whose faces didn't fit and left out in the cold.
Examples being Waldrom. Was he really a bench warmer for Jordan Crane?
Castro?
How long had Arguilla been at the club before he made the side - good enough to play for one of the top test sides but had to prove himself to get a start at Tigers. (Yes he left because of the salary cap and Argentina commitments)
Not to mention Twelvetrees and Brookes who have both gone on to international careers with England.

Perhaps the side is happier because they are playing better and an outsider has taken over as head coach? Perhaps Tigers have had a problem with senior players being too influential and have had coaches who are unable to separate personal loyalty and the need to be utterly objective?
mightymouse
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by mightymouse »

I thought croft played well when he came in yesterday. Our line out was a different quality when he came on. We started to disrupt their ball and we're secure on our own. Great to see him back fit and giving us an absolute selection nightmare.
L Smith
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by L Smith »

Smudge wrote:Just back from yet another great game at WR.
I haven't had much to praise in the last few years, certainly with the game we
played and the confidence, or lack of it, I felt in the coaching.
I don't mind saying now that at last we have a team playing in the manner worthy
of our great club and it's traditions. The difference is outstanding.
What is more, there is a great feeling of optimism about our future and potential.

We now have some of the most exciting players since the Johnson era, the facilities are improving by the day and the academy is in good hands again.
It is very pleasing to approach Christmas in this manner.
To all my friends in the club, the forum, (yes even the cock-eyed optimist north
of the border), here's wishing you all a happy and peaceful Christmas and a happy new year.

(I still miss the BaBa's game on boxing day, but you can't have it all!!)
Typical happy clapper :smt043 :smt023
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man
WhitecapTiger
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by WhitecapTiger »

mol2 wrote:
Over the past few years we have seen too many players whose faces didn't fit and left out in the cold.
Examples being........

Castro?

Not to mention Twelvetrees and Brookes who have both gone on to international careers with England.

Perhaps the side is happier because they are playing better and an outsider has taken over as head coach? Perhaps Tigers have had a problem with senior players being too influential and have had coaches who are unable to separate personal loyalty and the need to be utterly objective?
I think Castro is an unfair example about being left out in the cold. Ok, so it's only my opinion, but Cole was the better TH at the time and Castro didn't like it. Fair play, he wanted starting duties but Cole was simply better at the time, apprentice became the master.

Twelve trees got called up, on a wave of emotion and popularity maybe, but where is he now......I think he was found out a little at the top level. Don't get me wrong, it could have been tactics from England at the time that meant he didn't fit, and I'd be happy to see him given a fair crack again.

Brooks I'm not so sure about, but I'm not a front rower so I'll just leave it that I don't personally rate him, can't put my finger on it, when he did get his chance at Tigers he looked lazy - could be a completely wrong and unfair opinion but it's the impression I got. I still don't see him as an Intl prop - even though he's been capped, it's genuinely not just bias because we let him go. Would be happy for him to prove himself in an England shirt and shut up the uninitiated like me!

I think you could be right about coaching objectivity, sad though it is. The new coaches have complemented the existing and vice versa, not one of them has been a miracle cure on their own, but the overall difference is palpable, and long may it be so.
Last edited by WhitecapTiger on Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.
Bunchy
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by Bunchy »

mol2 wrote:To hell with popularity. These players are professionals. It's their job and whether or not you share the views of your fellow employees or even like them is secondary. Yes as a professional you have to implement the strategy set by your employer (in this case the coaches) but this is not recreational sport so it's doubtful any individual will get on with all of his squad members.

It's quite easy to understand why Gibson left.
Tigers were playing garbage at times last season - because of coaching, injuries and some strange selections.
For the first half of the season Gibson had been our outstanding player only to find himself dropped for a big game for a half fit Croft.
For an ambitions young player hoping for England recognition it just indicates you have no future with the club.

Over the past few years we have seen too many players whose faces didn't fit and left out in the cold.
Examples being Waldrom. Was he really a bench warmer for Jordan Crane?
Castro?
How long had Arguilla been at the club before he made the side - good enough to play for one of the top test sides but had to prove himself to get a start at Tigers. (Yes he left because of the salary cap and Argentina commitments)
Not to mention Twelvetrees and Brookes who have both gone on to international careers with England.

Perhaps the side is happier because they are playing better and an outsider has taken over as head coach? Perhaps Tigers have had a problem with senior players being too influential and have had coaches who are unable to separate personal loyalty and the need to be utterly objective?
That comment does smack of a person who has never played a team sport at any reasonable level.
If players dont fit in with the ethos of the team and squad they stand out and it affects the whole balance. Jamie Gibson, like George Ford put themselves ahead of the greater need of the club. It's no coincidence that once these players move on, the whole squad feels better and more united.
As for the comments on why he left, he, like everyone else has no god given right to the shirt and his moaning over style of play is laughable when you consider how the team he is now playing for is currently playing !!!
George Ford refused to accept that his performances whilst standing in for Flood were not good enough to keep the shirt. Billy 12T was far too inconsistent at Tigers as his career since he left continues to demonstrate. Waldrom too suffered a dip in form and lost the shirt deservedly.

Our coaches deserve credit for recruitment on the whole, no more than this seasons players. No player should be allowed to be in the squad, think they have a right to the shirt and not buy in to the overall strategy.
You mention Castro - would you say he was playing better than Cole at that time - NO. Should the club back Cole or an ageing prop? - COLE
Less is more....
jgriffin
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by jgriffin »

Might be worth mentioning again that older players a couple of years ago were worried that the Tigers dog was disappearing as they left (the Whites, Kays, Chuters)with players who were uninterested in the club culture and who were largely interested in ££ and international places replacing them. It seems that Ed is talking about that. The same players - who were FatBoys - alleged MOC was the divisive figure who had his favourites. The FatBoys did not like him and the club became an unhappy place at times. Everything that has happened in the last 3 years or so has been consistent with what I was told at the time (as I've said before, the players concerned have left).

Professionals or not, we are all aware that in team games there is no predictable formula for success, but a happy team is often better than a divided one (although French rugby and German football may have examples to the contrary).

Ed has had plenty of time to ruminate on the club environment, and IMO is very worth listening to.
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
mol2
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by mol2 »

I agree Cole was the better player but playing Cole to exhaustion in an era where most sides are changing their front row during the game and restricting Castro to cameos wasn't good player management.
tigerburnie
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by tigerburnie »

Nothing wrong with my eyes. Seasons Greeting Smudge.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
vin rouge
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by vin rouge »

Can someone explain why Gibson was such a bad apple please, I know Slater said some things but do we know he meant Gibson, and do we know specifics?
Knightonian
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Re: Return from the dark side.

Post by Knightonian »

In this article TTE states he felt the Tigers training was archaic and he didn't buy into it:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/d ... er-chiefs-

This explains a lot of why he and Cockers fell out
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