Hartley must be next England captain!

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Stu_F
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by Stu_F » Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:03 am

Spicer wrote:Currently I would say there are maybe 4 definite starters: Cole, Watson, May and Brown. None really captain material.
Well based on the recent statement by the FRU Mr Cole may be facing a ban for acts unbecoming :smt045

Bowden Tiger
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by Bowden Tiger » Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:24 pm

Hartley is not a good captain as he goes into his shell when things do not go to plan. He is certainly not the best hooker at Saints, as Hayward is far more impressive in nearly every aspect of his game.
Brown is a red card waiting to happen, but the added responsibility may work positively.

I have to go with Ed Slater!

Sajerj
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by Sajerj » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:10 pm

Bowden Tiger wrote:
Brown is a red card waiting to happen, but the added responsibility may work positively.
In ten years and 300 appearances for Harlequins and England how many red cards has Mike Brown had ?

Doghashadhisday
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by Doghashadhisday » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:41 pm

Sajerj wrote:
Bowden Tiger wrote:
Brown is a red card waiting to happen, but the added responsibility may work positively.
In ten years and 300 appearances for Harlequins and England how many red cards has Mike Brown had ?
You must really learn to read before shooting off. Bowden Tiger said Brown is a red card waiting to happen. No mention of Brown having red cards before so your question is pointless :smt003

L Smith
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by L Smith » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:41 pm

Doghashadhisday wrote:
Sajerj wrote:
Bowden Tiger wrote:
Brown is a red card waiting to happen, but the added responsibility may work positively.
In ten years and 300 appearances for Harlequins and England how many red cards has Mike Brown had ?
You must really learn to read before shooting off. Bowden Tiger said Brown is a red card waiting to happen. No mention of Brown having red cards before so your question is pointless :smt003
I thought he was already captain; he speaks to the ref more than any other player on the pitch, whenever he plays!
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man

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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by Bowden Tiger » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:57 pm

Sajerj, I believe that even the most one eyed Quins fan would say that he has been very lucky not to have been sent off. I have seen him lose it many times, and although he is a good player, I don't believe he has the temperament to be an England Captain, and I hope that if he has the chance, he proves me wrong.

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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by Cagey Tiger » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:56 am

Doghashadhisday wrote:
Sajerj wrote:
Bowden Tiger wrote:
Brown is a red card waiting to happen, but the added responsibility may work positively.
In ten years and 300 appearances for Harlequins and England how many red cards has Mike Brown had ?
You must really learn to read before shooting off. Bowden Tiger said Brown is a red card waiting to happen. No mention of Brown having red cards before so your question is pointless :smt003
Shooting off? Asking a perfectly reasonable question is shooting off? :smt017 Personally I would say that if anyone is shooting off it is you.

The question is NOT pointless. Past form is often a good indicator of future actions. Hartley can definitely be labelled a red card waiting to happen based on his track record. I don't know Brown's and couldn't find anything so cannot use that to make a future projection. Granted he is a bit more feisty and combative than ideally I would like though.

Creature
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by Creature » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:50 am

Let's face it, Johnno was no paragon of virtue and spent quite a bit of time in the sin bin at Welford Road (and other places) when wearing the Leicester jersey. That uppercut he landed on Robbie Russell at Vicarage Road, for which he received a yellow card and many thought he was lucky not to be sent off, was quite a wallop.

That said, he was generally calm under pressure in the white of England and a talismanic leader who has not been replaced; like Paul O'Connell, it's unlikely someone of his stature will be seen again.

mol2
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by mol2 » Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:48 am

Bowden Tiger wrote:Sajerj, I believe that even the most one eyed Quins fan would say that he has been very lucky not to have been sent off. I have seen him lose it many times, and although he is a good player, I don't believe he has the temperament to be an England Captain, and I hope that if he has the chance, he proves me wrong.
That's irrelevant - he's now 30 years old and England need to move on. He won't really be in the running to be first choice full back in 2019. Realistically whoever is chosen as captain should have a fighting chance of starting in the next world cup. It's debatable whether he's fallen behind the likes of Anthony Watson as full back, come the 6N England should look to the future so not in the running for the side (barring injuries) and certainly not as captain.

Not too many players are likely to be certain of their place. Launchbury, Cole, Joseph and probably Ben Youngs. Of these Joseph is too inexperienced, and Cole is a prop and thus not likely to be getting a good view of the game.

So Ben Youngs if he features in Eddie Jones plans or Launchbury.

physiodan
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by physiodan » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:09 am

My 6 Nations Team Age (caps)

1. Vunipola 24 (27)
2. Youngs 28 (28)leader
3. Cole 28 (56)leader
4. Slater (Captain) 27 (0) leader
5. Launchbery 24 (28)leader
6. Croft 30 (40)leader
7. Wallace 25 (0)
8. Waldrom 32 (4)
9. Youngs 26 (52)leader
10. Farrel 24 (35)leader
11. Rokoduguni 28 (1)
12. Slade 22 (2)
13. Tuilagi 24 (25)
14. Joseph 24 (16)
15. Watson 21 (15)

16. Hartley 29 (66)leader
17. Waller 25 (0)
18. Brookes 25 (15)
19. Itoje 21 (0) leader
20. O'Connor 26 (0)
21. Simpson 27 (1)
22. Cipriani 28 (14)
23. Tait 29 (38)leader

This is based on all being fit and well. Ave Age 25.9 so a good mix of Youth and Experience with 463 caps.

Sajerj
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by Sajerj » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:09 pm

Cagey Tiger wrote:
Shooting off? Asking a perfectly reasonable question is shooting off? :smt017 Personally I would say that if anyone is shooting off it is you.

The question is NOT pointless. Past form is often a good indicator of future actions. Hartley can definitely be labelled a red card waiting to happen based on his track record. I don't know Brown's and couldn't find anything so cannot use that to make a future projection. Granted he is a bit more feisty and combative than ideally I would like though.
Thanks for the moral support CT :smt002

I was indeed being a little rhetorical in my question, as i my understanding is that MB had never been red carded in his professional career, and i do not believe he has ever been cited and banned either.
You would be hard pressed to find many players with such a clear rap sheet. (obviously partly due to be a full back).

I don't believe he should be captain, but not because he is a liability with discipline. That would be the last reason.

MrPartridge
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by MrPartridge » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:14 pm

I have to go with Ed Slater!
A few days ago now but when 5 Live covered this last week on Matt Dawson's show it was almost a complete 'Launchberry Love-In'…

Always interesting to see what the turf accountants reckon:

Launchberry 8/11
Hartley 11/4
Brown 5/1
Wood 5/1
Robshaw 6/1
Ben Youngs 13/2
Maro Itoje 12/1
Ford 14/1
Parling 18/1
Morgan 20/1
Cole 25/1

None jumping out at me for a punt…

jgriffin
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by jgriffin » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:33 pm

This has been discussed in the newspapers and demolished as follows:

Launchberry - absolutely no leadership record
Hartley - red mist, age, ability = no
Wood - not guaranteed place
Robshaw - has slightly poor track record in job!
Youngs - yes and no
Itoje - see Launchberry + not guaranteed place
Slater - experience in role in AP and for national 2nds but not guaranteed place
After that it gets silly.

Slater was TRP choice.
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JackFlashJonny
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by JackFlashJonny » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:40 pm

jgriffin wrote:This has been discussed in the newspapers and demolished as follows:

Launchberry - absolutely no leadership record
Hartley - red mist, age, ability = no
Wood - not guaranteed place
Robshaw - has slightly poor track record in job!
Youngs - yes and no
Itoje - see Launchberry + not guaranteed place
Slater - experience in role in AP and for national 2nds but not guaranteed place
After that it gets silly.

Slater was TRP choice.
JG I think you will find Itoje led England to Junior Rugby World Cup glory and for me should be made captain..He oozes class and is a born leader..

tigercaspian
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Re: Hartley must be next England captain!

Post by tigercaspian » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:31 pm

Hartley is anyway currently still of with concussion related injury..........

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