To be sacked----------- Lancaster and 2 Farrells+ Randrew

[TomWeston]

... What future for most other journos including the odious Cleary of the DT?

Do I detect some little animosity towards the (supposedly) right wing press, not for the first time?

[Sajerj]

What i find puzzling is why the decline in the scrum has been so precipitous.

No doubt Marlor was a weak scrummer initially, but he seemed to improve significantly. England have gone up against all the best packs in the world in the 18 to 24 months leading into this world cup, and generally more than held their own with Marlor at loose head. There were some minor problems in this years six nations, but nothing like this.

It really is very odd. Is it just a complete collapse in Marlors form ? I am not sure anybody has the answer.

[The Boy Dave]

What i find puzzling is why the decline in the scrum has been so precipitous.

No doubt Marlor was a weak scrummer initially, but he seemed to improve significantly. England have gone up against all the best packs in the world in the 18 to 24 months leading into this world cup, and generally more than held their own with Marlor at loose head. There were some minor problems in this years six nations, but nothing like this.

It really is very odd. Is it just a complete collapse in Marlors form ? I am not sure anybody has the answer.

The intensity of the occasion IMO.
The Aussies cranked it up another notch.
England had no answers.

[Sajerj]

But we are not talking just about Aussie, Dave. It was evident in the warm up games and has carried on since.

My personal view is just a complete loss of form across the forwards.

[The Boy Dave]

The French gave them a going over in a warm up game, Fiji gave me a scare and the danger signs were very evident despite how things panned out, Wales aren't a great scrum but did enough against England IMO so it wasn't highlighted on that occasion, then the Aussies came and just totally smashed it.
It was coming at some point, we just didn't expect it would be the Aussies, that's the big shock to me!
Not shocked that they won by the way but just how convincing it was.

[Soggypitch]

one of the pundits said Parling was in to 'Babysit' OTY ????

I'm fairly sure this was Stuart Barnes, but he has a new article posted on Sky today so cannot check that, but I'm pretty sure. With the exception of his implied criticism of OTY, the rest of his views on SL etc are almost identical to JG's and many others on here.

I take great exception to any criticism of OTY in this tournament, Tom is one of the few England players to come away from this tournament with credit. There was no issue with the lineout v Wales or Australia and Tom's work in the loose is second to none.

Brian Moore in today's DT however says that England needs a new generation of hookers who hook, not just push, saying that we need to look upon the scrum as an attacking platform, not as a vehicle to win penalties...

It's an interesting article as always from BM even if I don't always agree with him. I would pay a decent wedge to see Moore and Cockers in a Q & A session relating to the scrum/hookers etc!!

[adamv6]

I have just about calmed down from Saturday evening.

First things first, I found it a great game to watch. The 2nd Australia try was just majestic, and whilst it was tantamount to the Aussies nailing the coffin lid shut, I still thought it was one of the best RWC tries I have seen.

The 'Lancaster Experiment' is surely over, hopefully the 'Farrell Experiment' will also be classed an abysmal failure along with it. Inexperienced, indecisive and inept pretty much describes the pair of them. Lancaster is clearly a nice bloke, but I think the advice he has been given by Farrell senior should have been taken with a pinch of salt. Farrell Jnr isn't 50% the Fly Half that Ford or Cipriani is, yet, he starts the 2 main matches in our group? I strongly feel that Farrell looked at Burgess and saw himself in his hay day and convinced/coerced his fellow coaches and Lancaster in particular that he should be taken above all others.

I really admired Lancaster's approach towards discipline within the squad, but it always felt draconian and frankly heavy handed. Sure, players are representing their country, but people make mistakes. It's not how you punish them, it's how they deal with the mistake and handle themselves afterwards. The whole Manu jumping off a boat after the last world cup in NZ incident was blown way out of proportion, and IMHO the resulting disciplinary regime has been flawed and detrimental as a consequence.

The light bulb moment for me, was a chat after the game with a friend who is a casual rugby fan (6 nations and RWC is about all he watches). He asked me if the NZ coach was to get the England job tomorrow morning, how many of those players playing tonight to you reckon he would pick for his first starting 15. I managed to get to 7 (Coles, T Youngs, B Youngs, Ford, Parling, Joseph, Watson). 7 out of 22. My friend picked one more in "the big lad who came on and sorted the scrum a bit" (Mako).

How can we have got to a stage where we (in another coaches shoes) couldn't even pick a starting 15 from our RWC side we are putting out against one of the top nations in the game!

I strongly believe that we will just get another 'Top down review' that is run by Teflon Rob and remarkable excludes him from the scope of the review. The RFU should ask another nations union to do the review for us, and hopefully they will get to the truth and actually set us on a good footing.

As annoyed as I am about it all, I am still going to the match on Saturday against Uruguay, I was rather hoping my kids would witness a side full of confidence and swagger though :(

[Sajerj]

I have just about calmed down from Saturday evening.

First things first, I found it a great game to watch. The 2nd Australia try was just majestic, and whilst it was tantamount to the Aussies nailing the coffin lid shut, I still thought it was one of the best RWC tries I have seen.

The 'Lancaster Experiment' is surely over, hopefully the 'Farrell Experiment' will also be classed an abysmal failure along with it. Inexperienced, indecisive and inept pretty much describes the pair of them. Lancaster is clearly a nice bloke, but I think the advice he has been given by Farrell senior should have been taken with a pinch of salt. Farrell Jnr isn't 50% the Fly Half that Ford or Cipriani is, yet, he starts the 2 main matches in our group? I strongly feel that Farrell looked at Burgess and saw himself in his hay day and convinced/coerced his fellow coaches and Lancaster in particular that he should be taken above all others.

I really admired Lancaster's approach towards discipline within the squad, but it always felt draconian and frankly heavy handed. Sure, players are representing their country, but people make mistakes. It's not how you punish them, it's how they deal with the mistake and handle themselves afterwards. The whole Manu jumping off a boat after the last world cup in NZ incident was blown way out of proportion, and IMHO the resulting disciplinary regime has been flawed and detrimental as a consequence.

The light bulb moment for me, was a chat after the game with a friend who is a casual rugby fan (6 nations and RWC is about all he watches). He asked me if the NZ coach was to get the England job tomorrow morning, how many of those players playing tonight to you reckon he would pick for his first starting 15. I managed to get to 7 (Coles, T Youngs, B Youngs, Ford, Parling, Joseph, Watson). 7 out of 22. My friend picked one more in "the big lad who came on and sorted the scrum a bit" (Mako).

How can we have got to a stage where we (in another coaches shoes) couldn't even pick a starting 15 from our RWC side we are putting out against one of the top nations in the game!

I strongly believe that we will just get another 'Top down review' that is run by Teflon Rob and remarkable excludes him from the scope of the review. The RFU should ask another nations union to do the review for us, and hopefully they will get to the truth and actually set us on a good footing.

As annoyed as I am about it all, I am still going to the match on Saturday against Uruguay, I was rather hoping my kids would witness a side full of confidence and swagger though :(

Hmmm..so you picked 3 Tigers and 2 ex tigers from 7, Adam. Where is Johnny May or Mike Brown ?

I am afraid, that apart from the Wales game, Ben Youngs came up short in this tournament, although it is very possible he was not fully fit against Australia.

[adamv6]

Hmmm..so you picked 3 Tigers and 2 ex tigers from 7, Adam. Where is Johnny May or Mike Brown ?

I am afraid, that apart from the Wales game, Ben Youngs came up short in this tournament, although it is very possible he was not fully fit against Australia.

It looks a little biased I agree, but this wasn't just me, and the 2 other people in the conversation had no dog in the fight. Youngs looked a little out of sort in the Aus game for sure, but was still substantially better than Wigglesworth.

Mike Brown is always a sticking point for me. Solid, unspectacular and at least once each half a liability. I don't think you can take that risk. Also, I would move Watson to fullback. Johnny May is good, but against the backdrop of all the wingers who didn't make the RWC squad (for whatever crazy reasons, we will never know), I don't think he would be a first choice to other coaches. England have very strong options in the back three, I think only Watson would keep his place to be fair.

[TigerTanks]

Normally I love seeing the England front row line up as: Marler, Youngs, Cole.

But the front row performance just wasn't the quality it needed to be.

[Jimmy Skitz]

more often than not it seemed Marler was getting penalised

[Sajerj]

Hmmm..so you picked 3 Tigers and 2 ex tigers from 7, Adam. Where is Johnny May or Mike Brown ?

I am afraid, that apart from the Wales game, Ben Youngs came up short in this tournament, although it is very possible he was not fully fit against Australia.

It looks a little biased I agree, but this wasn't just me, and the 2 other people in the conversation had no dog in the fight. Youngs looked a little out of sort in the Aus game for sure, but was still substantially better than Wigglesworth.

Mike Brown is always a sticking point for me. Solid, unspectacular and at least once each half a liability. I don't think you can take that risk. Also, I would move Watson to fullback. Johnny May is good, but against the backdrop of all the wingers who didn't make the RWC squad (for whatever crazy reasons, we will never know), I don't think he would be a first choice to other coaches. England have very strong options in the back three, I think only Watson would keep his place to be fair.

Ben just frustrates me a bit, Adam, because he has so much natural talent and you want to see him playing to his potential on a far more regular basis.

[drc_007]

Any idea what this is about?

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/england ... stigation/

[Jimmy Skitz]

dare I mention Danny Care being a better bench option than Wigglesworth

[Jimmy Skitz]

Any idea what this is about?

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/england ... stigation/

no idea but I'd guess that daddy was arguing his son's sin binning