England vs Wales - Ford dropped

[ourla]

Mistakes were made by coach (in selection, a substitution), captain (not going for the 3 points) and players (giving away unnecessary penalties) as a minimum. Clearly cumullatively that was too much and we lost the game by a small margin. The anti's are having their field day, which is fine. But the reality is it wasn't game over. Indeed, if we weren't in the group of death, it would have probably be seen as simply costing us first place and an easier QF. Instead, we effectively have to try again. Another old rival, another "biggest game ever". For the record I am ambivalent on Lancaster. I think there have been some good things and some bad under is tenure. I honestly have no idea what is going to happen on Saturday. There are simply too many variables to make a confident call. I can see a scenario where Lancaster gets his selection right, we play to our best, etc. But equally I can see some of the problems from this week resurfacing, the Aussies smelling blood and our boys caving in. Many won't but it's probably time for the media and the fans to chill out and clear their minds for at least a couple of days. It's just a game, etc. etc. before enjoying another great spectacle on Saturday. It will be live and death for the players. Almost literally. The physcological blow of losing will be enormous. So for their own sakes I hope they can pull it off.

[Iain]

The game plan was working. Why in the name of all that is holy did we deviate from it!?

Even though the game plan worked, I'm not a fan of us setting up to counter a side. Why not just be positive and take the game to Wales?

And kicking for the corner was stupid. A draw would have been fine for us. Either Farrell or Robshaw or both have bottled a decision there.

[MrPartridge]

Might interest a few… England still 11/2 second favourites to win the tournament! Personally, I can't see the logic in this but it might just be down to the bookies liabilities.

[The Boy Dave]

And kicking for the corner was stupid. A draw would have been fine for us. Either Farrell or Robshaw or both have bottled a decision there.

Who the nominated kicker was at that point is anybody's guess and perhaps they didn't even know, just confusion all round really created by selection.
Robshaw may well have wanted to take the kick at goal but no-one knew who's responsibility it was, and who would want it to be fair.
Coaches and their constant chopping and changing in selection brought about that situation and poor old Robshaw is the bloke who gets it in the neck.

[4071]

According to the stats on espn, Robshaw gave away 1 penalty at the breakdown, Wood 2, Vulnipola 1 and Cole was penalised once at the breakdown and once in the scrum.

So I'd say they were all equally guilty.

Perhaps more interesting is the tackle stats, T Youngs, Parling and Robshaw were all into double figures, Wood made 3 tackles. For a back-row forward that seems very low.

Both of Cole's were at the breakdown.


Wood was dire. One of his penalties - early in the second half - was just baffling. He got pinged for not rolling away at the tackle. He wasn't even NEEDED at the tackle. Burgess made the tackle, stayed on his feet and went for the ball - classic back row play. Wood arrived late, 'assisted' in the tackle as the ball-carrier was already going down under Burgess' hit, and then lay on the wrong side even though there were no Welsh players immediately close enough to clear out.

Could have been a great turnover in Burgess' favour. Ended up at 3 points for Wales.

[fleabane]

I don't buy TheBoyDaves argument at all!

Robshaw is the captain (for some reason) and he should say who kicks. Farrell thinks he would have kicked the penalty if asked, and on form I have no doubt he would have done. Interestingly it was Ford who kicked for touch. Farrell has played the team card in saying they all supported the captains decision, but I can't really believe that.

[The Boy Dave]

I don't buy TheBoyDaves argument at all!

Robshaw is the captain (for some reason) and he should say who kicks. Farrell thinks he would have kicked the penalty if asked, and on form I have no doubt he would have done. Interestingly it was Ford who kicked for touch. Farrell has played the team card in saying they all supported the captains decision, but I can't really believe that.

Why not buy it, it's not as if any of us know anything, the players looked as confused as the rest of us.
Farrell was the 10 and goal kicker, Ford comes on at 10, Farrell is moved to 12, Ford has the ball to kick for the lineout, so who was the goal kicker at that stage?
Knowing would actually help in decision making surely!
Robshaw can't ask a kicker to take a penalty with any certainty if he and they don't know who the kicker is!

[4071]

I don't buy TheBoyDaves argument at all!

Robshaw is the captain (for some reason) and he should say who kicks. Farrell thinks he would have kicked the penalty if asked, and on form I have no doubt he would have done. Interestingly it was Ford who kicked for touch. Farrell has played the team card in saying they all supported the captains decision, but I can't really believe that.

Why not buy it, it's not as if any of us know anything, the players looked as confused as the rest of us.
Farrell was the 10 and goal kicker, Ford comes on at 10, Farrell is moved to 12, Ford has the ball to kick for the lineout, so who was the goal kicker at that stage?
Knowing would actually help in decision making surely!
Robshaw can't ask a kicker to take a penalty with any certainty if he and they don't know who the kicker is!

Farrell is the goal-kicker at that stage. Obviously.

He started as goal-kicker, was on 100% and was still on the pitch. Unless there is specific instruction to the contrary from the coaching staff when Ford comes on (which would be immediately communicated), then he would remain as goal-kicker. This is obvious.

I don't think there was confusion as to who would take the kick - I suspect that the decision was made to go for touch regardless.

[fleabane]

SCW has this to say about the penalty decision to kick for touch and the throw, rather than take 3points:


England’s decision to kick for the corner rather than ask Farrell to shoot at goal to draw the match was the wrong call but it wasn’t Chris Robshaw’s fault. That one is down to the management.
It should have been discussed and coached at the very start of Lancaster’s regime. ‘What if’ coaching sessions might not be among the most glamorous, but like any aspects of international rugby, if you get these basics right the results will follow.
Decision-making is done through coaching and is just as important, if not more important, than any other aspect.
In the calm light of day you sit down and discuss likely scenarios. It might be how to play with 14 men, or what tactics to adopt if the game descends to uncontested scrums.
It would certainly include every conceivable ‘what if’ you might face either defending or chasing a narrow lead in the final two minutes of a huge World Cup pool game.
It is not possible, surely, that England have not sat down and asked themselves what the call is if they are faced with a very late penalty to draw as opposed to win.
Ever since the draw was made in 2012 this was on the cards against Wales and Australia. There is every chance of it happening again on Saturday.
So you kick it around in your team room on a quiet Monday afternoon when everybody is recovering from their club games the previous day.
And then the coach and team decide the policy so that you make the correct, logical call when you can’t hear yourself think in front of 80,000 fans, your brain is scrambling and the pressure is really on.
For England to say it was the captain’s call, and for Robshaw to accept the blame, is not right. It was a collective error that may haunt them for the rest of their lives.
Awareness and decision-making at the death has been an issue before but England got away with it.
In the first warm-up against France, stand-in skipper Tom Wood opted to kick into the corner thinking they were four points up and needed a try to seal the game when in fact they were five up and just needed the simple pot at goal.
Then, after the Fiji game, Billy Vunipola — who plays in the try-scoring position of No 8 — tells us he didn’t know that the bonus-points system was operating in the World Cup.
Here England have been burnt for not excelling in this important area. Simply put, it separates the good teams from the world class ones.

[scrum1/2]

Having now had a few days to calm down on this I'd raise a couple of points;

Firstly - how many times did we hear they'd spent all week talking about keeping the penalties out of the game - and then in the first 90 seconds we give away 2 and give Wales an easy 3 points and this set the tome for the rest of the game. Many penalities were being given away within easy kicking distance.

Second - I don't think that the decision to go for the corner was wrong. Apparently Robshaw spoke to his kicker(s) and the team agreed as they had the momentum to go for the win as the kick was not easy, if this had gone well then we'd all be saying what a great call. The lineout should have been won by throwing deeper and setting up either a drive or the minimum of a tying drop goal.

Third - I think this game more than any other that I've watched recently shows the value of the old saying that "good teams know how to close a game out". England didn't do this and had defence lines that were doglegging and allowing Wales to break through too easilly. It's ok to manage a game and not press too hard but unacceptable in this position not to manage how you do that.

Non of the above are individual player issues - they are a collective of the management, decision making and team play.

[Tiger_in_Birmingham]

Can't believe the number of people saying the corner kick was the wrong decision.

That was fine, the stupid part was throwing to the front! Without the back row in position (they had a long way to loop around and be able to drive infield and towards the line) England were always going to be pushed into touch. The forwards weren't going to let it go so Wales didn't need to compete in the air and just waited for the jumper to land and steamrollered him

[ourla]

Having now had a few days to calm down on this I'd raise a couple of points;

Second - I don't think that the decision to go for the corner was wrong. Apparently Robshaw spoke to his kicker(s) and the team agreed as they had the momentum to go for the win as the kick was not easy, if this had gone well then we'd all be saying what a great call. The lineout should have been won by throwing deeper and setting up either a drive or the minimum of a tying drop goal.

Robshaw shouldn't have had to speak to anybody. We all know Farrell is a great kicker. We all knew he'd a great day. We all knew that a draw was massively preferable to losing. We all knew Wales just to survive just two minutes and had defended well for the majority of the game. Sure the line out execution was pants. But the day needed saving. And the percentage call was to kick for 3. If our kicker had been a bit off and our lineout drive had been a winner all day, then I would have had a think about.

[Hot_Charlie]

Can't believe the number of people saying the corner kick was the wrong decision.

That's because it was. Anyone with a basic grasp of statistics would suggest so too.

In favour of the penalty place kick:

1) Farrell is just about the best place kicker in England, even if he does lack a little range.
2) Farrell had a 100% success rate on the night
3) 3 pets would tie the match. With a BP v Fiji, it would put the onus on Wales or Oz then getting a BP in one of their matches (other than Uruguay).
4) There would have been time for a restart. You can then choose to accept the draw, or go for the kill.

Kick for touch:

1) Webber had just had a shaky throw at the previous line out, so was the call to the front (presumably from Parling) to give him the best chance.
2) Far more scope for error - into touch on first throw, then with second a knock on.
3) Easier for the defenders to run the clock down.
4) You could be lucky and get 5/7 points, but it relied on all the above first.

Stuart Barnes' article in today's Times is excellent. I tend to agree with him that it's about time this captaincy experiment ended - as he points out three high profile matches have been lost on very poor decisions under pressure. He also points out it may be a squad problem - Wood had his mathematical inability v France in th warm ups. It's a shame it's taken until the RWC to find out, but possibly lucky it's been in a pool game.

[fortysix]

Nothing will chang,Wood and Robshaw will still be there to cock everything up..

Must be the worst back row in Englands history, in all seriousness....

[G.K]

Nothing will chang,Wood and Robshaw will still be there to cock everything up..

Must be the worst back row in Englands history, in all seriousness....

Add in puffin' Billy and it's almost laughable.