England:the Journey continues!

[jgriffin]

I suspect Lancaster will do much as Woodward did - discover his best side the year after the world cup.

The back row is an issue.
Loose head - unless Corbisiero gets back to a decent level of fitness we have Marler with limited back up. Vunipola, for all his ability in the loose, is not a strong enough scrummager against the best teams. Likewise at hooker the back up to Youngs is minimal , the like of Cowan-Dickie not there yet
Wings - plenty of talent around but not much experience.
Centre - the big problem at this world cup. In the longer run I'd like to see Slade and Manu.

England are not a bad side but they need a few key players back or the rising stars to plug the current gaps.

And no 7s.

[Steven]

Hi all, long time reader, first time poster.

Very good forum. Have read with interest many of the Tigers' threads for a long time and, more recently the England ones.

I've followed England very closely for a long time and thought I'd share my views. I'll start by putting the squad I believe Stuart Lancaster will pick and I've seen or read very little to make me believe that it will differ too much from this. Although many of you may not agree with some of these picks, I do believe that there is always reasoning behind Stuart Lancaster's decisions, whether you agree with his reasoning is another matter.

Marler
Corbisiero
M Vunipola

T Youngs
Webber
George

Cole
Wilson

Lawes
Launchbury
Parling
Attwood

Wood
Haskell
Robshaw

B Vunipola
Morgan

B Youngs
Care
Wigglesworth

Ford
Farrell

Barritt
Joseph
Burgess
Burrell

May
Nowell
Watson

Brown
Goode

I'll be happy to elaborate on his probable reasoning behind the picks you see as more contentious but didn't want to presume you'd be interested and make this post even longer in the process.

[Pellsey]

Welcome Steven,

You believe Lancaster has logic behind his decisions? Do tell!!

IMHO the forwards look quite good (but I am a fly half and have far less knowledge about the fat boys.), but I have no idea what he is thinking about the backs. I don't think he has a clue. But please enlighten me!

[Soggypitch]

If Brad Barritt plays at 12 it will just demonstrate how England have not really progressed in 4 years. We already have a 7 that does little else other than tackle. Do we want to play a defensive game? Do we think we can beat the top teams with that approach? I certainly don't.

And yes I would have liked to have Elliott Daly in the squad in place of Burrell, who in my opinion is yet another decent club player who can't cut it at international level.

Is that the same Brad Barritt who played 12 when England scored some great tries and beat NZ at HQ a couple of years ago and who completely outplayed Eastmond in the recent Prem final?

Is that the same Burrell who started every 6N's game this year when England scored 18 tries mainly through their backs?

Yes I like Slade and would pick him ahead of Burgess, but in a WC teams' also need experience, nous, strong characters and self belief. Look at NZ, they are no team of youngsters.

Lancaster knows the characters of these players and with Barritt he has got someone at 12 who will not let England down defensively, and with decent front foot ball from our pack and George Ford, he's quite capable of making breaks and off loading to Joseph et al.

I'm actually pretty happy with the centres, just wish SL would pick Slade as a genuine alternative to JJ, leaving BB and LB to fight for the 12 shirt.

[Soggypitch]

If Brad Barritt plays at 12 it will just demonstrate how England have not really progressed in 4 years. We already have a 7 that does little else other than tackle. Do we want to play a defensive game? Do we think we can beat the top teams with that approach? I certainly don't.

And yes I would have liked to have Elliott Daly in the squad in place of Burrell, who in my opinion is yet another decent club player who can't cut it at international level.

Is that the same Brad Barritt who played 12 when England scored some great tries and beat NZ at HQ a couple of years ago and who completely outplayed Eastmond in the recent Prem final?

Is that the same Burrell who started every 6N's game this year when England scored 18 tries mainly through their backs?

Yes I like Slade and would pick him ahead of Burgess, but in a WC teams' also need experience, nous, strong characters and self belief. Look at NZ, they are no team of youngsters.

Lancaster knows the characters of these players and with Barritt he has got someone at 12 who will not let England down defensively, and with decent front foot ball from our pack and George Ford, he's quite capable of making breaks and off loading to Joseph et al.

I'm actually pretty happy with the centres, just wish SL would pick Slade as a genuine alternative to JJ, leaving BB and LB to fight for the 12 shirt.

[Soggypitch]

Welcome Steven,

You believe Lancaster has logic behind his decisions? Do tell!!

IMHO the forwards look quite good (but I am a fly half and have far less knowledge about the fat boys.), but I have no idea what he is thinking about the backs. I don't think he has a clue. But please enlighten me!

Maybe Lancaster's logic comes from watching most Prem rugby games last season, having the time to analyse those games very carefully and look closely at the performance of specific players. Maybe his logic also come from observing the players very closely for the past 8 weeks in training and before that in previous training camps and international games. Maybe his logic comes from discussing all the above with a group of experienced coaches and thus reaching an informed logical decision....

What's your logic then Pellsey?

[Pellsey]

Yet he has never won anything. (Competition wise)

It is not my job to run the England backline, but it is his. IMHO the England backline (at least with Slancaster's first choice, Fazlet, Burrell and Burgess included) looks completely unorganised and lacks a "je ne sais quoi". Basically it looks like a group of forwards in the backs with them playing. Yes, ok, the last 6N was impressive, but that is because there were some flamboyant players in the team, but they did not play as a team. Another example was Watson last weekend. Had he not been in the team, due to his single handed tries, England, I don't think would have won. But hey, this is only my opinion.

[jgriffin]

wait and see. My guess is that this will be come evident in the match against Fiji and the crucial meeting with Wales. I expect England to win both, the latter by a hairs-breadth simply because Wales are imploding.

[Soggypitch]

wait and see. My guess is that this will be come evident in the match against Fiji and the crucial meeting with Wales. I expect England to win both, the latter by a hairs-breadth simply because Wales are imploding.

I've not been keeping up with Wales, why are they imploding JG?

[Pellsey]

wait and see. My guess is that this will be come evident in the match against Fiji and the crucial meeting with Wales. I expect England to win both, the latter by a hairs-breadth simply because Wales are imploding.

I hope it goes well! I am looking forward to seeing something good in the backline. Unfortunately I am not overly optimistic due to his record. I hope England win both, but I can see them slipping up on one of the two. I do expect them to lose to Australia though.

There are some really good players in the England squad, but it seems that Lancaster likes the "safe" options, IE the players who don't really make mistakes and kick the goals, but do not have any flamboyance nor ability to distribute and play as a team.

[jgriffin]

wait and see. My guess is that this will be come evident in the match against Fiji and the crucial meeting with Wales. I expect England to win both, the latter by a hairs-breadth simply because Wales are imploding.

I've not been keeping up with Wales, why are they imploding JG?

Gatland is thought to be playing a canny losing hand according to my Welsh chums. His resources are stretched thin, he has discarded a couple of experienced players who would be good cover and is also still experimenting in a couple of positions. They expect Wales to go out in group - whatever happens they see it as Gatland's exit. Apart from one Cardiff staffer who seemed to think Wales would ambush England my three recent visits in May and June elicited only gloom, doom and hatred of the WRU (not a representative sample, all Cardiff supporters apart from two Ospreys). Wales' only chance was thought to be that Lancaster makes a mess of it all.

[4071]

the England backline (at least with Slancaster's first choice, Fazlet, Burrell and Burgess included) looks completely unorganised

Where is the belief that his first choice line-up includes Fazlet, Burrell and Burgess coming from?

I suspect his first choice midfield at this point would be Ford/Barritt/Joseph.


And in terms of organization, his close-to-first-choice backline (with Burrell in for Barritt) looked pretty organized during the 6N. Scored a ton of tries and the obvious defensive issues would largely be solved by shifting Burrell for Barritt (as Burrell's defensive performances during that tournament were embarrassing).

[darganj]

the England backline (at least with Slancaster's first choice, Fazlet, Burrell and Burgess included) looks completely unorganised

Where is the belief that his first choice line-up includes Fazlet, Burrell and Burgess coming from?

I suspect his first choice midfield at this point would be Ford/Barritt/Joseph.


And in terms of organization, his close-to-first-choice backline (with Burrell in for Barritt) looked pretty organized during the 6N. Scored a ton of tries and the obvious defensive issues would largely be solved by shifting Burrell for Barritt (as Burrell's defensive performances during that tournament were embarrassing).

Completely agreed. Except for a minor miracle, it will be Ford/Barritt/Joseph walking out on September 18th.

I fully expect this England team to the make the Final. World class pack and some pace out wide. We will win the group and the side will grow in confidence throughout the tournament.

Wales have 15 decent players and will crumble if any one of their backs picks up a knock in the next few games.

Wallabies pack is lightweight and they still don't know their best 9 and 10.

People need more faith in this England team, it is coming together very well.

Marler
Youngs
Cole
Launchbury
Lawes
Haskell
Robshaw
Vunipola

Youngs
Ford

May
Barritt
Joseph
Watson

Brown

Only debate is Nowell vs May

[Pellsey]

the England backline (at least with Slancaster's first choice, Fazlet, Burrell and Burgess included) looks completely unorganised

Where is the belief that his first choice line-up includes Fazlet, Burrell and Burgess coming from?

I suspect his first choice midfield at this point would be Ford/Barritt/Joseph.


And in terms of organization, his close-to-first-choice backline (with Burrell in for Barritt) looked pretty organized during the 6N. Scored a ton of tries and the obvious defensive issues would largely be solved by shifting Burrell for Barritt (as Burrell's defensive performances during that tournament were embarrassing).

It is a sick and horrible hunch, but Barritt isn't much better. With Ford and Joseph it would be far better (assuming Ford can misspass all the time to Joseph), IMHO, but they still need to function as a team.

[Pellsey]

People need more faith in this England team, it is coming together very well.

I will have faith once England have won something, even the 6N.

IMHO a good group of players who need a better coach / coaching staff to make them into a team.