England:the Journey continues!

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jgriffin
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England:the Journey continues!

Post by jgriffin » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:31 pm

England (v France, Stade de France, 8pm BST, Saturday)
15 Mike Brown (Harlequins, 37 caps)
14 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 8 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
12 Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints, 12 caps)
11 Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 14 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
2 Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 22 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 22 caps)
5 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 38 caps)
6 James Haskell (Wasps, 59 caps)
7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 37 caps)(c)
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 18 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, uncapped)
17 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 21 caps)
18 David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
19 Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
20 Nick Easter (Harlequins, 51 caps)
21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 51 caps)
22 Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks, 13 caps)
23 Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 21 caps)

Cipriani and 12T there to be sent on for 30 seconds so dropping them (and probably Burrell) will be 'justified'? Personally I hope Cipriani gets on with 20 to go and scores a bucketful.
Last edited by jgriffin on Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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northerntiger
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Re: England for the weekend

Post by northerntiger » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:47 pm

Bit surprised he hasn't given 12T a start. Made up his mind already?

Bill W (2)
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Re: England for the weekend

Post by Bill W (2) » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:50 pm

northerntiger wrote:Bit surprised he hasn't given 12T a start. Made up his mind already?
Absolutley! Why Burgess not on bench to confirm his preeminnent position with a 30 second cameo appearance? Ah of course - already selected! :smt006
Still keeping the faith!

northerntiger
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Re: England for the weekend

Post by northerntiger » Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:11 pm

I have to admit, I prefer Burgess and Slade over 12T and Burrell

tigercaspian
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Re: England for the weekend

Post by tigercaspian » Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:12 pm

Objectively, you'd hope Nos 16 to 23 would get a good run out of at least 20 minutes. Otherwise what is the point of this warm up game ?
The ones that are good enough you don't have to ask questions of : the ones that may be not be still need to be tested, in which case a 3 minute cameo is frankly taking the **** out of the paying public, the player, and their club(s).
Subjectively, it's difficult not to disagree with jg........
I didn't watch Saturday's game but is May the only one getting a second start ?http://forum.leicestertigers.com/posting.php#

Bill W (2)
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Re: England for the weekend

Post by Bill W (2) » Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:32 pm

northerntiger wrote:I have to admit, I prefer Burgess and Slade over 12T and Burrell
Ah! It is not about who you would prefer or who I would prefer and what further evidence either of us would like to see. It is about who Lancaster will pick and how he will justify his selections should they prove inadequate!
Still keeping the faith!

northerntiger
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Re: England for the weekend

Post by northerntiger » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:04 pm

Bill W (2) wrote:
northerntiger wrote:I have to admit, I prefer Burgess and Slade over 12T and Burrell
Ah! It is not about who you would prefer or who I would prefer and what further evidence either of us would like to see. It is about who Lancaster will pick and how he will justify his selections should they prove inadequate!
Sadly, I think you are right. He has his favourites, and will pick them come what may. I must admit, I don't entirely see the point of picking nailed on players for this game. Risks injury, and what will he learn? Better to have another look at the fringe players. If either Youngs, Ford, Cole get crocked we are in deep trouble

Bill W (2)
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Re: England for the weekend

Post by Bill W (2) » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:12 pm

northerntiger wrote:
Bill W (2) wrote:
northerntiger wrote:I have to admit, I prefer Burgess and Slade over 12T and Burrell
Ah! It is not about who you would prefer or who I would prefer and what further evidence either of us would like to see. It is about who Lancaster will pick and how he will justify his selections should they prove inadequate!
Sadly, I think you are right. He has his favourites, and will pick them come what may. I must admit, I don't entirely see the point of picking nailed on players for this game. Risks injury, and what will he learn? Better to have another look at the fringe players. If either Youngs, Ford, Cole get crocked we are in deep trouble
In his justification of his selection he needs to show game time with first choice players. Thus Burgess played well behind a second choice pack whereas ,,,,,, etc etc. He is playing silly games in order to keep his job (when we fail to make the final) rather than determining objectively the best squad to win the Cup!
Still keeping the faith!

fortysix
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Re: England for the weekend

Post by fortysix » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:18 pm

Bill W2 is right , Lancaster is playing political games to keep the status quo when things go belly up in the play offs...

What a mess up of a squad...

Bill W (2)
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Re: England for the weekend

Post by Bill W (2) » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:57 pm

fortysix wrote:Bill W2 is right , Lancaster is playing political games to keep the status quo when things go belly up in the play offs...

What a mess up of a squad...
Thank you fortysix. Your post lost a little in the editting!! :smt010

SLancaster has of course been tutored by Chief Teflon, RAndrew! :smt005
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jgriffin
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Re: England for the weekend

Post by jgriffin » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:03 pm

What really racks me off is that Lancaster today states that Cipriani is only in contention for the 15 berth.
http://tinyurl.com/nt4dyrg
He may have been a tool in the past but he has been pretty well the best or second best 10 in the AP (I believe he is better than Ford, being far more able to function behind a struggling pack). So he is being ruled out at 10 for:
1 Ford - perhaps better for some critics on the front foot, but IMO no better and worse behind a struggling pack, kicking not the range of Cipriani nor as good in defence (Cipriani's tackle stats have been excellent for two seasons)
2 Fazlet - never a 10, not even for his own team, though a reasonable 12. No better kicker than Cipriani, excellent defensively, no attacking threat
3 Goode - at 15, let alone 10, you are joking
4 Slade - truly gifted but untried in the fire, and only a couple of games away from Wales & Oz
5 12T - good kicker, just below international level 12, not a 10, going home anyway and always has been

This to me is one injury away from a disaster, as is hooker and LH
Leicester Tigers 1995-
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A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.

Bill W (2)
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Re: England for the weekend

Post by Bill W (2) » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:23 pm

jgriffin wrote:What really racks me off is that Lancaster today states that Cipriani is only in contention for the 15 berth.
http://tinyurl.com/nt4dyrg
He may have been a tool in the past but he has been pretty well the best or second best 10 in the AP (I believe he is better than Ford, being far more able to function behind a struggling pack). So he is being ruled out at 10 for:
1 Ford - perhaps better for some critics on the front foot, but IMO no better and worse behind a struggling pack, kicking not the range of Cipriani nor as good in defence (Cipriani's tackle stats have been excellent for two seasons)
2 Fazlet - never a 10, not even for his own team, though a reasonable 12. No better kicker than Cipriani, excellent defensively, no attacking threat
3 Goode - at 15, let alone 10, you are joking
4 Slade - truly gifted but untried in the fire, and only a couple of games away from Wales & Oz
5 12T - good kicker, just below international level 12, not a 10, going home anyway and always has been

This to me is one injury away from a disaster, as is hooker and LH
Farrel Snr has told Slancater that Farrel (Jnr) should be 10. Faced with contary evidence Ford got allowed to play;

Cippers blotted his copybook (more than once) with SLancaster;

Thus Cippers cannot be in contention at fly half but to show an open mind he could be considered as full back!.

SLancaster is not about selecting a minimum risk/maximum opportunity squad. He is about justifying his (and Farrels) biased preconceptions.

Concur with Hooker and LH.
Still keeping the faith!

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Re: England for the weekend

Post by G.K » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:39 am

Why is Burrell in the squad at all let alone starting is beyond me. I've always thought that England played better with a second receiver/kicker so I would go with either 12T or Farrell in that position.

As for 13 - if we are going to play Bulldozers then Burgess comes into the reckoning, however I'd prefer skill and pace so for me it's a choice between Joseph and Slade.

As for the rest of the selection it's probably as expected the preferred first team choice for Lancaster.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

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Re: England for the weekend

Post by The Boy Dave » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:32 am

12T there to be sent on for 30 seconds so dropping them
I'd be surprised if Lancaster dropped what would be his most capped centre if he plays on Saturday so close to the world cup!
But then should I be?
The All Blacks and Aussies must possess a massive number of caps in comparison to England in the backs.
Cheery chappy

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Re: England for the weekend

Post by 4071 » Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:59 am

Bill W (2) wrote:
northerntiger wrote:
Bill W (2) wrote: Ah! It is not about who you would prefer or who I would prefer and what further evidence either of us would like to see. It is about who Lancaster will pick and how he will justify his selections should they prove inadequate!
Sadly, I think you are right. He has his favourites, and will pick them come what may. I must admit, I don't entirely see the point of picking nailed on players for this game. Risks injury, and what will he learn? Better to have another look at the fringe players. If either Youngs, Ford, Cole get crocked we are in deep trouble
In his justification of his selection he needs to show game time with first choice players. Thus Burgess played well behind a second choice pack whereas ,,,,,, etc etc. He is playing silly games in order to keep his job (when we fail to make the final) rather than determining objectively the best squad to win the Cup!
You have to know that's a ridiculous comment. He has a pretty safe contract already and has no need to justify his squad to the fans. He is objectively selecting the best squad he thinks can win the WC. He doesn't need to 'show game time with first choice players' in order to make excuses. Indeed, he could have picked a completely different side with predominantly second-string players again and you'd have still put it down to him playing silly games in order to keep his job.

The fact is that if he picks Burgess over 12T, if he picks Burrell over Slade, if he picks Goode/Farrell over Cipriani, if he picks Wood over a tackle bag with a face drawn on it, if he picks Kruis over Parling or any other combination of 50/50 selections then he's doing it because he believes that his choice is the best choice to win the WC.

He's likely to be wrong on some calls, and he's likely to disagree with many fans on others (which is not the same as being wrong). There has never been a universally accepted WC squad in the history of the game.

I think we know his first XV, though - it's basically the starting line-up above, but with a return for the injured Barritt. And I think most would agree with most of that selection. The fringe players in or out of the squad are always going to be more controversial as we have so many players at similar levels, and someone is always going to have favourites that miss out (Kvesic, Simpson, Eastmond, Wade, Tait, etc).

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