I like the look of LCD but his throwing has to improve considerably I think before he is considered for test selection.
Infact the one thing I would say about Hartley is his throwing was generally solid and as much as I much prefer TY, I think TYs has had the yips a little more in England games. I know for Tigers its really solid.
Hartley AGAIN
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InGuinnessVeritas
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Re: Hartley AGAIN
From the BBC.
"I've been unlucky with getting it wrong on the big stage a few times now. Maybe it's down to emotions?" Now I know where the term 'No sh*t Sherlock' comes from.
"I've been unlucky with getting it wrong on the big stage a few times now. Maybe it's down to emotions?" Now I know where the term 'No sh*t Sherlock' comes from.
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Cagey Tiger
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Re: Hartley AGAIN
InGuinnessVeritas wrote:From the BBC.
"I've been unlucky with getting it wrong on the big stage a few times now. Maybe it's down to emotions?" Now I know where the term 'No sh*t Sherlock' comes from.
Re: Hartley AGAIN
If he's out of the World Cup why bother selecting him again? He seems to think that his international career isn't over.
At his age he's unlikely to be first choice come 2019 so better to give younger players the chance to establish themselves in the 4 years between world cups than reverting to an ageing one with a suspect temperament.
Having said that I would like to see England do that after the world cup - look to the future. Arguably England have never really recovered from SCW failing to do that after winning the world cup, keeping the ageing core team together to try and use as a base for the Lions and lurched from last minute re-hashes of the side with last minute coaching appointments that don't give the side tome to develop.
I don't expect much of England at the world cup but do think Lancaster has a core of talented young players to build for 2019 and would hope he doesn't hang on to the older players after the cup. (Not that he will have too many to jetison) but will have to look hard at Robshaw, Wigglesworth, Cipriani and Hartley.
At his age he's unlikely to be first choice come 2019 so better to give younger players the chance to establish themselves in the 4 years between world cups than reverting to an ageing one with a suspect temperament.
Having said that I would like to see England do that after the world cup - look to the future. Arguably England have never really recovered from SCW failing to do that after winning the world cup, keeping the ageing core team together to try and use as a base for the Lions and lurched from last minute re-hashes of the side with last minute coaching appointments that don't give the side tome to develop.
I don't expect much of England at the world cup but do think Lancaster has a core of talented young players to build for 2019 and would hope he doesn't hang on to the older players after the cup. (Not that he will have too many to jetison) but will have to look hard at Robshaw, Wigglesworth, Cipriani and Hartley.
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tigercaspian
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Re: Hartley AGAIN
I can agree with or understand most of the points of view expressed in this thread. Indeed, In Cips case, if this is what he has done, I once had to fire a salesman who had had a night in the pub until closing time, got up at 6 am the next morning to drive to his parents house to walk the dog, and got stopped by the boys in blue when he was found to be over the limit & lost his licence. However, if Cips was up to the wee small hours and then had his prang, I would find it hard to be sympathetic to his predicament.
Much as all these points of view are interesting, the three England players themselves should be in no doubt about and not at all surprised by Slancaster's stance. Here is a quote from Slancaster in May 2012:-
“They all understand what can and can’t be done, and realise that this is the way the bus is going and they’ve got decisions to make as to whether they want to be on it,” said Lancaster. “I showed them the headlines to illustrate that the reason we’ve got from where we were to where we are now is that they’ve all focused again on why it is that they want to play for England, and to appreciate the scrutiny and responsibility that comes with all that.
“There were several players in the room who have been involved in incidents and they were all nodding their heads in agreement when I said that we didn’t want off-field distractions affecting on-field performances. They are in no doubt about the parameters. There is a code of conduct. They know, too, that it’s not about words, it’s about behaviour and actions.”
I also remember The Times quoting in 2013 that the gym & meeting rooms at Pennyhill Park had the slogan 'England 365' plastered all over the walls for the players to understand that playing for England required their complete commitment to what management told them was appropriate behaviour both on and off the pitch.
So which bits did messrs Hartley, Tuilagi, and Cipriani not understand ??
Much as all these points of view are interesting, the three England players themselves should be in no doubt about and not at all surprised by Slancaster's stance. Here is a quote from Slancaster in May 2012:-
“They all understand what can and can’t be done, and realise that this is the way the bus is going and they’ve got decisions to make as to whether they want to be on it,” said Lancaster. “I showed them the headlines to illustrate that the reason we’ve got from where we were to where we are now is that they’ve all focused again on why it is that they want to play for England, and to appreciate the scrutiny and responsibility that comes with all that.
“There were several players in the room who have been involved in incidents and they were all nodding their heads in agreement when I said that we didn’t want off-field distractions affecting on-field performances. They are in no doubt about the parameters. There is a code of conduct. They know, too, that it’s not about words, it’s about behaviour and actions.”
I also remember The Times quoting in 2013 that the gym & meeting rooms at Pennyhill Park had the slogan 'England 365' plastered all over the walls for the players to understand that playing for England required their complete commitment to what management told them was appropriate behaviour both on and off the pitch.
So which bits did messrs Hartley, Tuilagi, and Cipriani not understand ??
Re: Hartley AGAIN
As far as I know none of them have said they didn't understand or said they don't accept his decision. They did what they did because they are human beings and fallible. That is all.So which bits did messrs Hartley, Tuilagi, and Cipriani not understand ??
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JackFlashJonny
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Re: Hartley AGAIN
ourla wrote:As far as I know none of them have said they didn't understand or said they don't accept his decision. They did what they did because they are human beings and fallible. That is all.So which bits did messrs Hartley, Tuilagi, and Cipriani not understand ??
Well said Ourla
Re: Hartley AGAIN
Wonder what Lancaster's excuse will be, if he is found to be fallible?
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Bill W (2)
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Re: Hartley AGAIN
jgriffin wrote:Wonder what Lancaster's excuse will be, if he is found to be fallible?
"If" jg? When surely?
Still keeping the faith!
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tigercaspian
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Re: Hartley AGAIN
Presumably his answer will be along the lines of "We didn't win because some of my players were mere mortals and turned out to be fallible, thus we went into the Cup with a weakened team", quickly followed by "But don't worry, I'm contracted until after the next World Cup!".
IMHO if these guys want to win anything big with England, they have to give up being mere mortals, stop being fallible, and act like the England management team wants them to. In Hartley's case, I can't see any excuses at all, not least because as has been pointed out he is letting his compadres down on the field of play: in Manu's case, youth and probably going nuts on the treatment table might just have something to do with it: as for Cips, what are you doing driving a car at 5 am on a Sunday morning after several fruit juices on a Saturday night & why didn't you just stay in bed?
IMHO if these guys want to win anything big with England, they have to give up being mere mortals, stop being fallible, and act like the England management team wants them to. In Hartley's case, I can't see any excuses at all, not least because as has been pointed out he is letting his compadres down on the field of play: in Manu's case, youth and probably going nuts on the treatment table might just have something to do with it: as for Cips, what are you doing driving a car at 5 am on a Sunday morning after several fruit juices on a Saturday night & why didn't you just stay in bed?