Hartley AGAIN

[ourla]

What happened was nothing. Total bl66dy mess, created by Lancaster's ludicrous 'moral' crusade (which included trashing MJ's reputation). I genuinely feel sorry for the bloke. get off your high horses, forum - it was a nothing incident and if it was a Tigers player you'd all be screaming blue murder.

Genuinely incredulous that you can hold this view.

[sapajo]

What happened was nothing. Total bl66dy mess, created by Lancaster's ludicrous 'moral' crusade (which included trashing MJ's reputation). I genuinely feel sorry for the bloke. get off your high horses, forum - it was a nothing incident and if it was a Tigers player you'd all be screaming blue murder.

Genuinely incredulous that you can hold this view.

Delusion springs to mind

[APM16]

Dylan's World Cup record speaks for itself:-
2007 - banned
2011 - 1 start - 1 yellow card - 39' - England vs Georgia
2015 - banned

& British Lions Tours
2009 - not selected
2013 - banned

2007-2015 = 3 World Cups & 2 Lions Tours & Dylan got a yellow card on his only start

Don't think there's any reason to delay your holiday Dylan - you won't be missed

[Johnnyg]

What happened was nothing. Total bl66dy mess, created by Lancaster's ludicrous 'moral' crusade (which included trashing MJ's reputation). I genuinely feel sorry for the bloke. get off your high horses, forum - it was a nothing incident and if it was a Tigers player you'd all be screaming blue murder.

Genuinely incredulous that you can hold this view.

Delusion springs to mind

I hadn't realised it was Lancaster in a Dylan mask who nutted George. He pleaded guilty to an offence with a lower end 4 week suspension which means he won't be available. For once Lancaster's logic, if you bother to read it, is impeccable. What goes on in Hartley's brain....."I am in the last chance saloon so I mustn't do something stupid, I mustn't do something stupid, I mustn't do something stupid, I mustn't do something stupid, I mustn't do something stupid, oh :censored: I just nutted someone to celebrate a try." Funny how anyone is to blame for this but Dull'one.

[jgriffin]

At least when the All Blacks dance away with the World Cup again we'll be smugly polishing the Moral High Ground Trophy.

Funny old pattern, this - the posters who rubbish Cockers are many of the posters crowing about Hartley, and some are almost knee-jerk critics of other posters regardless of the post (cf myself and Tigerburnie in particular). I call it the Daily Wail tendency.

Do we want to win the World Cup? Yes.
Do we want to be the 'Moral High Ground Trophy' winners? No, because there isn't such a trophy. So we pick the best players. Hartley may well get left out because of form, fine. Manu may get left out because of an injury, fine. Armitage may get left out because he plays overseas (won't go into the rest of the saga).

But all you fine Moral High Ground Trophy aspirants need to note that nearly nobody (with the exception of Dawson and Toxic Rob )from 2003 backwards would get into Lancaster's squad. Certainly not MJ, nor Oz, nor Dayglo (Care for a toot? Oh you're a reporter?), nor Moore, nor Probyn, nor Cotton, nor Beaumont, nor Leonard (let's move on to the next pub for a sherbet) nor Deano (where's the next trophy for a kicking?)....the list is endless. We wouldn't have an England side if it wasn't for reprobates, by Lancaster's standards. The posters on here who also go on about some mythical Golden Age for Tigers are talking about a bunch of unpickable naughty boys by these impossible standards.

I await refutation from Ourla and Sapajo (and 4071 above all), while I wait here at my keyboard clutching copies of Dayglo's books, and MJs and so on out of my quite extensive library of 'what we got up to' memoirs. I'm not deluded, I am simply pointing out the moral incongruities and practical issues present.

[Johnnyg]

At least when the All Blacks dance away with the World Cup again we'll be smugly polishing the Moral High Ground Trophy.

Funny old pattern, this - the posters who rubbish Cockers are many of the posters crowing about Hartley, and some are almost knee-jerk critics of other posters regardless of the post (cf myself and Tigerburnie in particular). I call it the Daily Wail tendency.

Do we want to win the World Cup? Yes.
Do we want to be the 'Moral High Ground Trophy' winners? No, because there isn't such a trophy. So we pick the best players. Hartley may well get left out because of form, fine. Manu may get left out because of an injury, fine. Armitage may get left out because he plays overseas (won't go into the rest of the saga).



But all you fine Moral High Ground Trophy aspirants need to note that nearly nobody (with the exception of Dawson and Toxic Rob )from 2003 backwards would get into Lancaster's squad. Certainly not MJ, nor Oz, nor Dayglo (Care for a toot? Oh you're a reporter?), nor Moore, nor Probyn, nor Cotton, nor Beaumont, nor Leonard (let's move on to the next pub for a sherbet) nor Deano (where's the next trophy for a kicking?)....the list is endless. We wouldn't have an England side if it wasn't for reprobates, by Lancaster's standards. The posters on here who also go on about some mythical Golden Age for Tigers are talking about a bunch of unpickable naughty boys by these impossible standards.

I await refutation from Ourla and Sapajo (and 4071 above all), while I wait here at my keyboard clutching copies of Dayglo's books, and MJs and so on out of my quite extensive library of 'what we got up to' memoirs. I'm not deluded, I am simply pointing out the moral incongruities and practical issues present.

You clearly haven't bothered to read the press release as to why Hartley has been dropped. Unlike Manu, the reasons are as a result of the unavailability during critical periods of the World Cup, NOT (as per Manu) as a result of a reaction to the offence itself. It is nothing to do with a moral crusade, propensity or as a punishment:
"“If we selected him in the World Cup squad he would have played no competitive rugby at all and we would be left exposed with only two available hookers in what is a specialised position going in to the Fiji game.
“All it would take is one injury during the week of the Fiji game and we would only have one fit hooker in the squad for our crucial opening game and this would leave us massively exposed.
“In addition, the regulations also clearly state that in our World Cup Squad we must have sufficient cover that is suitably trained and experienced in the front row in case of injury. This is clearly not the case if we begin the tournament with a suspended hooker and as such we have been left with no choice but to replace him."
Lancaster did not bring this about, a clown who can't control his emotions in big games did.

[watsonjm]

At least when the All Blacks dance away with the World Cup again we'll be smugly polishing the Moral High Ground Trophy.

Funny old pattern, this - the posters who rubbish Cockers are many of the posters crowing about Hartley, and some are almost knee-jerk critics of other posters regardless of the post (cf myself and Tigerburnie in particular). I call it the Daily Wail tendency.

Do we want to win the World Cup? Yes.
Do we want to be the 'Moral High Ground Trophy' winners? No, because there isn't such a trophy. So we pick the best players. Hartley may well get left out because of form, fine. Manu may get left out because of an injury, fine. Armitage may get left out because he plays overseas (won't go into the rest of the saga).

But all you fine Moral High Ground Trophy aspirants need to note that nearly nobody (with the exception of Dawson and Toxic Rob )from 2003 backwards would get into Lancaster's squad. Certainly not MJ, nor Oz, nor Dayglo (Care for a toot? Oh you're a reporter?), nor Moore, nor Probyn, nor Cotton, nor Beaumont, nor Leonard (let's move on to the next pub for a sherbet) nor Deano (where's the next trophy for a kicking?)....the list is endless. We wouldn't have an England side if it wasn't for reprobates, by Lancaster's standards. The posters on here who also go on about some mythical Golden Age for Tigers are talking about a bunch of unpickable naughty boys by these impossible standards.

I await refutation from Ourla and Sapajo (and 4071 above all), while I wait here at my keyboard clutching copies of Dayglo's books, and MJs and so on out of my quite extensive library of 'what we got up to' memoirs. I'm not deluded, I am simply pointing out the moral incongruities and practical issues present.

I agree with large chunks of this. For me, its a home world cup, we should be fielding the best possible team we can. If that means selecting someone who had a brush with the law or who plays overseas so be it. I have spent a ton of money on tickets to watch England and want to see the best possible team regardless of off the field issue or where they play club rugby to try and win our home world cup. I care less about brand England and more about a winning England this year above and beyond any other.

And before anyone says it i know DH has been dropped because of the games he will miss. I think both jgriffin and I are looking at the wider issue and those constantly talking about 'Moral high grounds'

[sapajo]

At least when the All Blacks dance away with the World Cup again we'll be smugly polishing the Moral High Ground Trophy.

Funny old pattern, this - the posters who rubbish Cockers are many of the posters crowing about Hartley, and some are almost knee-jerk critics of other posters regardless of the post (cf myself and Tigerburnie in particular). I call it the Daily Wail tendency.

Do we want to win the World Cup? Yes.
Do we want to be the 'Moral High Ground Trophy' winners? No, because there isn't such a trophy. So we pick the best players. Hartley may well get left out because of form, fine. Manu may get left out because of an injury, fine. Armitage may get left out because he plays overseas (won't go into the rest of the saga).

But all you fine Moral High Ground Trophy aspirants need to note that nearly nobody (with the exception of Dawson and Toxic Rob )from 2003 backwards would get into Lancaster's squad. Certainly not MJ, nor Oz, nor Dayglo (Care for a toot? Oh you're a reporter?), nor Moore, nor Probyn, nor Cotton, nor Beaumont, nor Leonard (let's move on to the next pub for a sherbet) nor Deano (where's the next trophy for a kicking?)....the list is endless. We wouldn't have an England side if it wasn't for reprobates, by Lancaster's standards. The posters on here who also go on about some mythical Golden Age for Tigers are talking about a bunch of unpickable naughty boys by these impossible standards.

I await refutation from Ourla and Sapajo (and 4071 above all), while I wait here at my keyboard clutching copies of Dayglo's books, and MJs and so on out of my quite extensive library of 'what we got up to' memoirs. I'm not deluded, I am simply pointing http://forum.leicestertigers.com/posting.php#out the moral incongruities and practical issues present.

All our yesterday's, talk about flogging a long dead horse.

[Johnnyg]

At least when the All Blacks dance away with the World Cup again we'll be smugly polishing the Moral High Ground Trophy.

Funny old pattern, this - the posters who rubbish Cockers are many of the posters crowing about Hartley, and some are almost knee-jerk critics of other posters regardless of the post (cf myself and Tigerburnie in particular). I call it the Daily Wail tendency.

Do we want to win the World Cup? Yes.
Do we want to be the 'Moral High Ground Trophy' winners? No, because there isn't such a trophy. So we pick the best players. Hartley may well get left out because of form, fine. Manu may get left out because of an injury, fine. Armitage may get left out because he plays overseas (won't go into the rest of the saga).

But all you fine Moral High Ground Trophy aspirants need to note that nearly nobody (with the exception of Dawson and Toxic Rob )from 2003 backwards would get into Lancaster's squad. Certainly not MJ, nor Oz, nor Dayglo (Care for a toot? Oh you're a reporter?), nor Moore, nor Probyn, nor Cotton, nor Beaumont, nor Leonard (let's move on to the next pub for a sherbet) nor Deano (where's the next trophy for a kicking?)....the list is endless. We wouldn't have an England side if it wasn't for reprobates, by Lancaster's standards. The posters on here who also go on about some mythical Golden Age for Tigers are talking about a bunch of unpickable naughty boys by these impossible standards.

I await refutation from Ourla and Sapajo (and 4071 above all), while I wait here at my keyboard clutching copies of Dayglo's books, and MJs and so on out of my quite extensive library of 'what we got up to' memoirs. I'm not deluded, I am simply pointing out the moral incongruities and practical issues present.

I agree with large chunks of this. For me, its a home world cup, we should be fielding the best possible team we can. If that means selecting someone who had a brush with the law or who plays overseas so be it. I have spent a ton of money on tickets to watch England and want to see the best possible team regardless of off the field issue or where they play club rugby to try and win our home world cup. I care less about brand England and more about a winning England this year above and beyond any other.

And before anyone says it i know DH has been dropped because of the games he will miss. I think both jgriffin and I are looking at the wider issue and those constantly talking about 'Moral high grounds'

It is simply nonsense to suggest that "anything goes" was the policy in days of old. Dallaglio was forced to resign as England captain and was forced to miss the tour of Australia. If I was asked whether it is acceptable behaviour to kick a priceless trophy around Princes Street without sanction, I would say it isn't acceptable now and wasn't then. Oh the good old days. Jeffrey was banned for 5 months for that jolly jape, Richards for 1 game. I think Scotland got it right.

[watsonjm]

At no point did i say anything goes. I think the Manu incident has been blown widely out of proportation and the oversea rule is utterly stupid in a home world cup year more than any other and esp when talking about a player as good as Armitage.

[Soggypitch]

Lancaster has always differentiated between on field and off field behaviour in his crusade to improve the image of the England team. Simon Cohen confirmed this on Radio Leicester on Wednesday night.

Is he right?

It's a debating point. In my view it all depends on the degree of the offence. For example I would find it very difficult to forgive the cowardly on field assaults of Clark on our hooker (senior moment temporarily forgotten his name!) and Duncan McRae on Ronan O'Gara for the Lions a few years back. However Hartley is just a thick tempestuous hooker, who I can easily forgive on moral grounds, but SL has made the right decision on rugby grounds - well done to him for that.

With regards to off field offences, no problem to me Manu jumping off the ferry, doing bunny ears to Cameron (yes a reprimand for both but no ban), but committing a criminal offence assaulting two female police officers is completely different and no England coach now or in the past would have picked him for this world cup - Johnnyg is right, things are not that different now, except players get away with less off the field due to mobile phone cameras, social media etc...

So the so called "moral high ground crusade" is not a black and white issue in my view, there are always shades of grey, and in all honesty I think SL is making a decent job of it in some difficult circumstances, although I don't always agree with him obviously!

[G.K]

What happened was nothing. Total bl66dy mess, created by Lancaster's ludicrous 'moral' crusade (which included trashing MJ's reputation). I genuinely feel sorry for the bloke. get off your high horses, forum - it was a nothing incident and if it was a Tigers player you'd all be screaming blue murder.

Genuinely incredulous that you can hold this view.

Agreed - trying to make excuses for Hartley is just plain stupid!

[chipnchase]

Simple advice.....

IF YOU ARE A PRO ATHLETE DON'T DO THE FOLLOWING:

1: DRINK DRIVE
2: CHOKE A TAXI DRIVER
3: HEADBUTT SOMEONE INFRONT OF 15K PEOPLE AND THE WORLDs MEDIA
4: IF SOMEONE SAYS YOUR ON YOUR LAST CHANCE, DON'T SEE THAT AS A GOAL TO AIM FOR
5: DONT BE A DICK

Following these simple rules will not only make you a better human but significantly increase your chances of playing for England!

Can we all stop kidding ourselves with the 'its nothing' comments. Before long we'll be going the way of football and cheering guys onto the pitch who have just come back from killing a kid whilst drunk driving, serving a sentence for rape or beating the living daylights out of someone on a night out.

Yes we do take the moral high ground and that's what separates rugby from the knuckle dragging football support. Don't like it? Get out of OUR game.

We've had 150 pretty good years so far thanks to our morals and I for one hope it continues.

[snoopster]

It's a debating point. In my view it all depends on the degree of the offence. For example I would find it very difficult to forgive the cowardly on field assaults of Clark on our hooker (senior moment temporarily forgotten his name!) and Duncan McRae on Ronan O'Gara for the Lions a few years back. However Hartley is just a thick tempestuous hooker, who I can easily forgive on moral grounds, but SL has made the right decision on rugby grounds - well done to him for that.

My biggest issue by someway with Hartley is that for me gouging is in the same sort of category as Clark and McRae's actions and Hartley did it to two players in one game - cowardly, sneaky and potentially causing life long injury.
Everything he has done since just confirms that he has little self control and a vicious, stupid streak a mile wide.

With regards to off field offences, no problem to me Manu jumping off the ferry, doing bunny ears to Cameron (yes a reprimand for both but no ban), but committing a criminal offence assaulting two female police officers is completely different and no England coach now or in the past would have picked him for this world cup - Johnnyg is right, things are not that different now, except players get away with less off the field due to mobile phone cameras, social media etc...

I agree with this - what Tuilagi did seems to be at the least extreme end of it, hence a fine and not more, but it was clearly beyond the bounds of drunken hijinks.
It is funny when you read accounts of past Lions tours though, with players revelling in the damage they did to hotels when drunk - the press hysteria would be incredible.

[Cagey Tiger]

To those who want to select our "best" players, almost regardless, consider the following, which is not a moral high ground argument.

Hartley has misbehaved in a Premiership final, semi-final, 6N game and against Tigers at FG amongst others. All high pressure games with high scrutiny, but with much less pressure and scrutiny than there will be in a home World Cup. Do you really want someone who is a loose cannon playing for England? While it cannot be proved one way or the other, you can make a reasonable case to say that he cost Saints the final against Tigers. As I posted earlier, his latest offence was not a spur of the moment reaction to provocation, although it may have been as a result of an earlier incident. He can't even be trusted when things are going his team's and his way.

I know that rugby is supposed to be played "close to the edge", especially by the forwards, but does anyone in the Premiership or anywhere for that matter have his record of offences (ignoring the length of suspension to remove cries of "he is being singled out")? One comes to my mind, Halaufia, and he is generally regarded as a thug with no place on a rugby pitch.