Cockerill's message to us

[TigerLad]

We should have kept Ford, he doesn't understand rugby like I do, he's boring, he hates academy players, Wells would have been as good as Itoje if Cockers would only have given him game time, Lewington is better than Goneva etc.

Are we really going to repeat this conversation EVERY time something goes wrong?

[G.K]

That said however, the man management of other players has in some cases been poor, here I'm thinking particularly of Moody, 12T, Castro and Waldrom where it seems there's been a fair amount of acrimony involved. There was a time when players who left Tigers did not generally go on to better things, now they regularly do.

Re your four examples:
In hindsight and indeed at the time, if Moody had stayed at Tigers it should not have been on the playing squad.
12T departed after intimating he was going to stay. It was not his, or his agent's, finest hour. I can't help thinking if he had stayed at Tigers he would have continued to develop at least as much as he has done elsewhere.
Castro went in something of a sulk because he was being pushed into second place. How has that worked out for him? Inter alia, compare the Flood/Ford position with that of Castro/Cole, bearing in mind that Cole had surpassed Castro whereas Ford was still getting there, and frequently showing that there was a long way to go.
I'll give you Waldrom although if the way he wanted to play didn't fit the club (Cockerill?) ethos what are the options? Should the whole gameplan have been built around him?

Moody - I understand that he left as he was told a condition would be that he couldn't play for England again, simply ridiculous. OK he went on to pick up another injury at Bath causing his early retirement, but no-one could have foreseen that. It's very poor that we recruit injured players but let someone, who had given their all to Tigers, go because they are injured. I'll never agree Tigers did the right thing in that situation.

12T - left because he wasn't getting enough game time at IC, unlike Ford I think he was justified in being somewhat aggrieved about that. I don't agree he would have developed at Tigers in the same way as he has at Glos.

Castro - probably a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other but obviously there was a rift so in my opinion some blame must accrue to the DOR here. However Castro has subsequently shot himself in the foot by his tirade at the Toulon game.

Waldrom - have Exeter built their whole game plan around Waldrom then? I didn't know, can't recall Baxter indicating that.

[h's dad]

Moody - I understand that he left as he was told a condition would be that he couldn't play for England again, simply ridiculous. OK he went on to pick up another injury at Bath causing his early retirement, but no-one could have foreseen that. It's very poor that we recruit injured players but let someone, who had given their all to Tigers, go because they are injured. I'll never agree Tigers did the right thing in that situation.

Until Bath stepped in it was going to be France. Not sure that would have been a great move for his England prospects. But the money would have been nice (as he has indicated). I don't blame him at all. But I don't blame Tigers either.

Somebody posted the other day that Tigers can't afford to spend to the salary cap. That's wrong. They do. And that means choices, hard choices, have to be made.

[Phil B]

Seems strange to me that in the normal world of work, people come and go as they please - advancement, career progression, promotion, change of scene, moving house, wife insists etc etc. Yet as soon as we are in the sporting world, suddenly everyone has to stay put. Kind of odd that.

[The Boy Dave]

Lets put the Ford debate to bed once and for all, read this article and consider the players who have had to retire due to injury, players such as Shontayne Hape or Lee Byrne and look at what is happening to the likes of George North.

http://www.sportsgazette.co.uk/section. ... 558&sid=19

Read articles like this and tell me that Cockerill did not look after Ford very well indeed.

http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/spo ... -1-4442253

You can search the web and find quote after quote from Cockerill, "Ford will be a great" or "we want Ford to still be around in 10, 12 or even 15 years time for us and England so we will look after him and help him achieve that".
I have no doubt that had Ford stuck with Cockerill he would have been Leicester's regular 10 for two years since Flood moved on, and who's to know this was not a part of the grand plan and a massive contract was in the offing for Ford as soon as funds were freed up.
As it is the link with his Father at Bath is one most would find difficult to turn down.

On the Lewis Moody issue I believe Leicester and Cockerill had both his and the clubs best interests at heart.
Moody needed to be more careful about how he continued to throw himself around and he definately needed to reduce his playing time.
Read.

http://blogs.channel4.com/keme-nzerem-o ... ryant/1684

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... entia.html

I think it's wrong of people on here to criticize what they don't fully know about, there is a lot more to things than simply dismissing Cockerill as a control freak who holds players back especially when you consider Moody's injuries.
I believe Cockerill tries to be a very forward thinking coach especially concerning the welfare of his players.
Think Matt Tait and also Dan Cole in particular to the now retired Andrew Seridan or what about Adam Jones and all of his horrible injuries and props such as Castro should be thanking Cockerill for being a bit wiser on their long term welfare in earlier years.
There is a bigger picture sometimes!
I would add that supporters and players particularly a young one or one with a poor injury record should consider all the permutations when understanding why he may not be getting as much money or as much playing time as he wants or as much as other individuals and consider the environment he is involved in comparison to other clubs and the level that is being targeted or why the coach feels he is not ready or not good enough for a certain level.

[Phil B]

Lets put the Ford debate to bed once and for all,

I don't think so. He left, he's good, and SOMEONE HAS TO PAY!

[G.K]

Seems strange to me that in the normal world of work, people come and go as they please - advancement, career progression, promotion, change of scene, moving house, wife insists etc etc. Yet as soon as we are in the sporting world, suddenly everyone has to stay put. Kind of odd that.

No not everyone has to stay put, that is unrealistic in the professional era. However as in the 'normal world of work' a high turnover of staff usually results in poor performance and is often an indication of underlying problems.

[h's dad]

Seems strange to me that in the normal world of work, people come and go as they please - advancement, career progression, promotion, change of scene, moving house, wife insists etc etc. Yet as soon as we are in the sporting world, suddenly everyone has to stay put. Kind of odd that.

No not everyone has to stay put, that is unrealistic in the professional era. However as in the 'normal world of work' a high turnover of staff usually results in poor performance and is often an indication of underlying problems.

Fair point. Obviously this isn't the 'normal world of work'. Are there any stats to show that Tigers have a higher player turnover than other AP clubs?

[Smudge]

You only have to read Lewis Moody's biography to understand how bitter he felt at
his treatment by Tigers at the end.

In my many years of involvement with the club I have known few who equal his
commitment for the club and if anyone could be said to have red white and green
in his veins it is him.
Never afraid to put his personal safety first, he dived in among the feet like a
"mad dog" and gave his utmost.
Some people talk about posters speaking pure conjecture giving opinions of what
has happened within our club.
Let me tell you, "I know" the effect it had on the players at the club.
As one household name said to me over a drink, if a player like Lewis, who has been
everything you could want in a player, could be treated like that, don't expect the
rest of us to risk life and limb for the club.
As well as being unfair it was very disrespectful to a Tiger's legend who was also the England Captain.
Whether it was "good business" is entirely immaterial.
A great player was shafted by the club he loved. Fact.

[jgriffin]

You only have to read Lewis Moody's biography to understand how bitter he felt at
his treatment by Tigers at the end.

In my many years of involvement with the club I have known few who equal his
commitment for the club and if anyone could be said to have red white and green
in his veins it is him.
Never afraid to put his personal safety first, he dived in among the feet like a
"mad dog" and gave his utmost.
Some people talk about posters speaking pure conjecture giving opinions of what
has happened within our club.
Let me tell you, "I know" the effect it had on the players at the club.
As one household name said to me over a drink, if a player like Lewis, who has been
everything you could want in a player, could be treated like that, don't expect the
rest of us to risk life and limb for the club.
As well as being unfair it was very disrespectful to a Tiger's legend who was also the England Captain.
Whether it was "good business" is entirely immaterial.
A great player was shafted by the club he loved. Fact.

I have Lewis's biography. I have read it. How many games had he played for the club in the three years prior to his contract end? I was fed up with his never-appearing, then I was angry about the treatment he received, but when time had given a little perspective (before he had to retire)it was clear that the club had to manage its business properly. Unfortunately that means sometimes it's unpleasant and sometimes the wrong call is made. However it is worth pointing out that many of the calls at Tigers are £££ vs future utility to the club (a rational basis); the only departure I rue was 12T, and I have been told the background to this.
I really don't get the issue....the same few points are brought up, largely with reasoning of the quality of the Harpo Marx Book of Logic Lectures.

[G.K]

...I really don't get the issue....the same few points are brought up, largely with reasoning of the quality of the Harpo Marx Book of Logic Lectures.

I am proposing the above as the most ironic posting of the season.

[Bill W (2)]

...I really don't get the issue....the same few points are brought up, largely with reasoning of the quality of the Harpo Marx Book of Logic Lectures.

I am proposing the above as the most ironic posting of the season.

I second that!!

[mike]

jg - could you perhaps for the rest of us elaborate as to why you rue the 12T departure and the background to it .