Cockerill's message to us

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G.K
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by G.K » Mon May 25, 2015 9:34 am

ukjohno wrote:Having read the posts since Saturday's debacle, which ever side of the fence you sit on in regard to this great clubs current demise, the one escapable fact is that our back line from 9 -15 who were on the pitch that day, were not/are not good enough in terms of basic talent when compared to the Bath players. If you merged to the two teams together, not one of the Leics backs would make it into the team., likewise not one of the leics back row on that display on Saturday would make it either. Leaving just the front 5 who performed heroically and demolished their counterparts. That's the scale of the problem facing us, we need quality players in that back line to build on the excellent work of the front 5 who could take on many international front 5's and come out on top. No emotion, no drama, just plain facts we need new faces who can play, make the line breaks and have the speed to run down the opposition.
Yes the fact that you can't compete at the top level just by having a good tight five and a good set piece should have been noted by the DOR some time ago. It's also obvious that having ex players as coaches 'learning on the job' is not optimal.
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by jgriffin » Mon May 25, 2015 9:41 am

Firstly I do wonder how many have tried to play the game with different combinations every week, it tends to make your plan relatively simplistic, even with systems and a playbook, even for pro players. You have to have a settled back line (you can more easily swap FatBoys) to play heads-up.
Secondly, Cockers has admitted something many of us in his position would be tempted to do, wrap some players in cotton wool during the week to preserve them. Almost all of our injuries were acquired elsewhere, match-related or intractable long-term ones - Morris is a case in point, broken ankle twice in match, hand injury in match. The training ground 'theory' is basically rubbish.
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by bc » Mon May 25, 2015 10:06 am

I have to agree with Big Dai and GS who both say we cannot keep making excuses around injuries. 1season is bad luck but 2 comes down to bad management and that ultimately sits with the DOR.
How as DOR can come out say 'we must evolve' is beyond me. What has he been doing while being in charge? Evolution has to be the key requirement for any DOR not dogma!
Our DOR is a good forwards coach as seen by their dominance of Bath in the set piece BUT that does not win games. Attack, defence and backs are not his strengths and he has not had the vision 2 cover 2 out of the 3.
I feel sorry for Mauger because he is on a hiding to nothing unless things do radically change at the top. If he is not given the reins in all aspects of coaching as Head Coach then Tigers will continue to fall behind and he will be another scapegoat.
The good thing is that, if the players can keep the 'never say die' attitude then there is something to build on.

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by fleabane » Mon May 25, 2015 10:22 am

I do worry that the lack of firepower, rather than the lack of skills,invention and guile is brought up as a reason for being unable to break down defences.

Undoubtedly injuries have played a part in Tigers' results this season, but why, for the second season in a row, do we have far more unselectable players at the start of the season than any other team? It may not be possible to win the Championship before Christmas, but it sure is possible to have to play a difficult game of catch-up thereafter!

Looking back through the pages to last year's pre-season, there was so much enthusiasm and expectation - we had the best squad for years, a squad capable of defeating all comers. What happened? Why so many unfit or injured?

The argument surrounding an unsettled backline is unsustainable. We have had unsettled front, second and back rows, but every forward knows their job, knows the calls. Phil Blake has demonstrated that when they follow the strategy, that the backline, whoever is in it, can defend successfully. when it fails, it is because a player falls off a tackle, comes out of the line, etc. Strategies work, so why has there been such failure in the backline? Either the strategy is wrong, the players do not, or are incapable of following it, or do not have the skills, vision or ability to play the game as they see it unfold. More likely, it does not seem that they are encouraged or trusted to do so. Or is it that we do not have a Cipriani type player who is able to turn on the magic when the opportunity presents itself?

Will Aaron Mauger be able to change things in one pre-season? My heart hopes so, my head says it is not possible to undo so many years of the "stuff it up your jumper" style of rugby that has bogged Tigers down for several seasons now. We are a long way behind our competitors, only able to grind out results through sheer doggedness, our meagre tactics having been picked apart with 30+ points defeats in the last couple of years not only away but also at WR by Saints, Bath, Sarries, Quins, with Sharks and Glaws also joining the 30+ club.

Solve the injury issue Mr Cockerill, bringing us in line with the competition and we will see if you are right. It would be a start, but only a start.
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by Tigerbeat » Mon May 25, 2015 10:45 am

Player pulls up with a groin strain, player gets concussed, player breaks ankle, player gets shoulder injury, player suffers arm injury, player suffers blow to ribs, player has a stinger.
I guess that these are all down to the poor Management.

Perhaps we should make tackling illegal then the risk of big hits and concussion would be reduced.

Go to uncontested scrums and this would take the pressure off the players shoulders.

Tigers have been very unlucky. Pearce came to Tigers having suffered an injury whilst playing last season, after he had signed. The last thing that anyone would want is to lose a player to injury and these players are supported by good back up. The players have to be honest and make sure that they are physically right and fit to play. No player wants to be out of the game.

Changes are in the offering and new players are coming in. Manu and Allen have been missed - Manu for his ability to break the game line and draw in defences thus allowing space and gaps for runners. Allen has been missed for his defensive organisation.
Looking forward to next season.
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by Sajerj » Mon May 25, 2015 10:47 am

My own view on the injures has always been that RC got it badly wrong in pre season 2013, post Lions tour.

The problems really started in earnest then.

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by TigerCam » Mon May 25, 2015 10:48 am

Big Dai wrote:And Cockers played where? Loyal, dogged, red green and white to the core, ABC to the core. A tight 5 forward and arguably the second best forwards coach in the country. The best, by a fine margin, being his erstwhile colleague Wig.

The change MUST come in the backs in tactics, personnel and management. This is why Mauger will be so important. Whether cockers will loose the reigns and allow new ideas makes me a little nervous.

But I'm looking forward to it. In a strange masochistic, Remy soaked, behind the sofa sort of way.
Is there room for two? If Mauger does not have a free rein then we will have much of the same next season and maybe not so lucky in getting a play-off spot.

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by fleabane » Mon May 25, 2015 10:50 am

I do not know if you are an insider or not, Tigerbeat, but from your post I suspect not. The club knows it has a problem, and has a good idea of where it starts. Your post does nothing to answer the question of why so many injuries, just rolls out the same old chestnuts.
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by Tigerbeat » Mon May 25, 2015 10:51 am

Sajerj wrote:My own view on the injures has always been that RC got it badly wrong in pre season 2013, post Lions tour.

The problems really started in earnest then.
What did RC get wrong?
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by sapajo » Mon May 25, 2015 10:55 am

Tigerbeat wrote:Player pulls up with a groin strain, player gets concussed, player breaks ankle, player gets shoulder injury, player suffers arm injury, player suffers blow to ribs, player has a stinger.
I guess that these are all down to the poor Management.

Perhaps we should make tackling illegal then the risk of big hits and concussion would be reduced.

Go to uncontested scrums and this would take the pressure off the players shoulders.

Tigers have been very unlucky. Pearce came to Tigers having suffered an injury whilst playing last season, after he had signed. The last thing that anyone would want is to lose a player to injury and these players are supported by good back up. The players have to be honest and make sure that they are physically right and fun to play. No player wants to be out of the game.

Changes are in the offering and new players are coming in. Manu and Allen have been missed - Manu for his ability to break the game line and draw in defences thus allowing space and gaps for runners. Allen has been missed for his defensive organisation.
Looking forward to next season.
As a supporter I admire the club's staunch support for injured players welfare it is simply magnificent. That said in the current financial climate with so many serious and long term injuries to key players, I wonder just how much longer we can afford to sustain it?
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by Ian Cant » Mon May 25, 2015 11:12 am

In other seasons some, but certainly not all injuries had been the result of hard training but this season I am pretty sure nearly all injuries have been a result of playing or playing for England. In fact, strangely most injuries this season have occurred in away games, Croft, Parling, Williams, Morris, Roberts, Pearce, Ayerza etc with manu and Benjamin the standouts at home. When Benjamin (and to some extent Scully)got injured a couple of months ago it was a great shame because he would compete with the likes of Watson, Eastmond, Joseph and was really beginning to come into the form he is capable of. It is no use blaming Cockerill for injuries or the way the backs play. Only under the mercurial and much missed Pat Howard did our backs run great lines yet it is also only 2 seasons ago that we scored tries for fun. Now it is time for the board, especially Mr.Tom to look at themselves, give Cockerill both the money to buy seriously talented backs with pace and a new pitch. A new part to the stadium wasn't, in my opinion more important than the players and pitch.Oh yes, and my wife is so right, how we have missed Floody, line breaks, off loads, bossing Youngs and the defence.
Looking forward already to the new season where there will be even greater challenges with more clubs able to beat each other.

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by Big Dai » Mon May 25, 2015 12:23 pm

Tigerbeat wrote:Player pulls up with a groin strain, player gets concussed, player breaks ankle, player gets shoulder injury, player suffers arm injury, player suffers blow to ribs, player has a stinger.
I guess that these are all down to the poor Management.

Perhaps we should make tackling illegal then the risk of big hits and concussion would be reduced.

Go to uncontested scrums and this would take the pressure off the players shoulders.

Tigers have been very unlucky. Pearce came to Tigers having suffered an injury whilst playing last season, after he had signed. The last thing that anyone would want is to lose a player to injury and these players are supported by good back up. The players have to be honest and make sure that they are physically right and fit to play. No player wants to be out of the game.

Changes are in the offering and new players are coming in. Manu and Allen have been missed - Manu for his ability to break the game line and draw in defences thus allowing space and gaps for runners. Allen has been missed for his defensive organisation.
Looking forward to next season.
Sorry to be controversial but I look on manuu as a one trick pony. Besides you can't rely on your major asset if he has what sounds like a problem that is likely to occur. Similarly with AA. A rock in defence but not (IMHO) a pacey, footballing 12 (almost a second 10). I feel the mix we have been relying on is not the right one and worse is only one deep!
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by Sajerj » Mon May 25, 2015 12:41 pm

Tigerbeat wrote:
Sajerj wrote:My own view on the injures has always been that RC got it badly wrong in pre season 2013, post Lions tour.

The problems really started in earnest then.
What did RC get wrong?

Brought them back to pre-season three weeks after the tour finished. The players were exhausted and all subsequently broke down and lost form.

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by POSTIGER » Mon May 25, 2015 12:57 pm

While injuries have played their part and we've had some horrendous luck on that score, I personally think some serious questions need to be asked of the conditioning strategy at the club.

Other clubs have had injuries but nothing like the scale we've seen at Tigers - it's freakish. Can that ALL be down to bad luck? I'm not so surem
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by Norfolk & Goode » Mon May 25, 2015 12:59 pm

Ian Cant wrote:I am pretty sure nearly all injuries have been a result of playing or playing for England
The main issue with injuries starts pre-season with a ridiculous training structure based around smashing the ball up the pitch. This has culminated in the past 2 seasons of an unprecedented amount of serious injuries the players carry before the season has even started. That has been Cockerill's game plan which has failed against quality sides who put their first teams out, proven perfectly true by Bath who just sat and watched Tigers get more and more exhausted trundling up the pitch until it was turnover time, when they then let the ball do the work to score 7 tries in 8 visits to our 22.

That combined with Cockerill's appalling man management, proven by star players leaving who don't want to, and sacking McCarthy, Burke and other coaches/staff because they contradicted Cockerill's blinkered game plan and poor management skills, all makes for a man that has detiorated the clubs playing infrastructure, along with one or two key members of the board who sell his approach back to the board.

I have total admiration and respect for each and every player giving everything they have to squeeze us into the semis. If Cockerill as DoR carries on and overrides the new Head Coaches philosophies and playing style then that is all we are ever going to achieve.

And don't be conned by those tears after the Wasps game, that was relief from having his neck on the block, and justly so.

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