Saracens v Tigers

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Big Dai
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by Big Dai » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:57 pm

MrPartridge wrote:
help take of the awful weight that Aaron Mauger will have next season.
I think this is a really good point… the pressure on Mauger is going to be unreal. I'm hoping/half-expecting him to bring in a couple of top quality players and transform our backs play for starters… which in all honesty isn't fair on him and just shows IMO how much we have gone backwards since the glorious wins over Quins and Saints to take the title in 2013…

I don't know who coaches our backs at the moment…. but offensively they are blunt and inept
True, too true. We almost have an investment bias towards front five in terms of quality. More midfield balance is called for.
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Crumblies
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by Crumblies » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:09 pm

h's dad wrote
It bemuse me that you don't seem to see how well your rebuttal refers to your own comments.
It also bemuses me how many seem to regard Cockerill, his assistants, his advisors and his bosses as complete idiots despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Here we go again quoting all evidence to the contrary yet failing to produce any.

The evidence I and others use is our eyes, our ears and our natural intelligence to make conclusions rather than blind faith and belief in everything everyone else tells us.

As to 'I don't see how well my rebuttal refers to my own comments'. If I wasn't so bemused by this nonsensical comment I'd attempt a sensible response.

sapajo
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by sapajo » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:50 pm

MrPartridge wrote:
help take of the awful weight that Aaron Mauger will have next season.
I don't know who coaches our backs at the moment…. but offensively they are blunt and inept
That will be Mr Murphy an all time Tigers legend :smt023
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity

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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by jgriffin » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:51 pm

I am pleased to see that so many rely on their own view, not statistics nor probably a nuanced view of rugby - see Boy Dave's post for nuance and balance.
I have been a critic in the same way as Crumblies, as you know I believe that MOC crippled our progression with poor backs playbook and an abrasive personality. I am not the only poster on here who has been told by an ex-player how divisive and autocratic he was. Despite my view, and anecdotal evidence for it, statistics suggest it was a successful period for the club and one that many of the so-called 'superior' clubs would kill for. Consequently, I have to acknowledge, hopefully with humility, that an outsider would question my conclusions.
Performances are not just cyclical (good season, bad season)but fluctuate in the short-term; some events are unlikely (a WBP at Saffacens). Quins are an example of a team that have suffered a dip in form; Chiefs are having a good season, following a couple of indifferent ones; Bath remain arch-flaky; Stains are becoming erratic. It is perhaps a product of the salary cap, and in the nature of sport, that domination is not possible over an extended period of time.
My conclusion - statistically, Cockers has been unassailable. This season has highlighted concerns, the Board has acted as fast as they could - Phil Blake is strong evidence of that and a consequent improvement in play. The quest for a dominant DOR is illusory - they don't exist; Joe Schmidt is the nearest at present but he has always had top-line resources to draw on, we haven't, and we can't afford to.
I believe Cockers will go, almost certainly to France; exactly when? I'd put money on this summer, without fanfare, as likely as anything, but I think he will go before he is pushed, unless he has actually been pushed already. I do not think he will be replaced with anyone as committed, knowledgable and humble; be careful what you wish for.
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drc_007
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by drc_007 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:58 pm

jgriffin wrote:I believe Cockers will go, almost certainly to France
Well the French Federation have launched a call for bids to become the next France head coach and succeed Philippe Saint-André.

h's dad
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by h's dad » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:01 pm

tigerburnie wrote:Was it Richard Cockerills fault that OTY was yellow carded,
Actually tigerburnie, I do hold Cockerill responsible to a great extent for the penalty count, even more so when it's a front row knocking them out time after time to the extent that yellow cards are earned.
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by Nizzle1 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:07 pm

jgriffin wrote: Performances are not just cyclical (good season, bad season)but fluctuate in the short-term; some events are unlikely (a WBP at Saffacens). Quins are an example of a team that have suffered a dip in form; Chiefs are having a good season, following a couple of indifferent ones; Bath remain arch-flaky; Stains are becoming erratic. It is perhaps a product of the salary cap, and in the nature of sport, that domination is not possible over an extended period of time.
My conclusion - statistically, Cockers has been unassailable. This season has highlighted concerns, the Board has acted as fast as they could - Phil Blake is strong evidence of that and a consequent improvement in play. The quest for a dominant DOR is illusory - they don't exist; Joe Schmidt is the nearest at present but he has always had top-line resources to draw on, we haven't, and we can't afford to.
I believe Cockers will go, almost certainly to France; exactly when? I'd put money on this summer, without fanfare, as likely as anything, but I think he will go before he is pushed, unless he has actually been pushed already. I do not think he will be replaced with anyone as committed, knowledgable and humble; be careful what you wish for.
Absolutely agree. Hit the nail on the head.
Cockers is incredibly under rated.
Tigers are not lacking a DOR, but a head coach to discuss and, at the end of the day, pick holes in his gameplay- so that it can be improved.
We must keep Cockers, interest will be extremely high from across the channel, and pray that Mauger is the man to bash out a good playbook WITH Cockers. He is an incredible coaching talent.
I believe he is the one, and IF those rumours about mermoz/ Le Roux come true, then I am extremely excited for next season.
However, do not take that as I have thrown in the towel. I will never do this. I, as all fans should, will continue to back Tigers with all my heart. After all, isn't that what sport is all about? Win some, lose some, try to win more than you loose in the hope of silverware? Who would enjoy a sport where the same team were invincible every season? Nobody would.
Losing is apart of sport, some people are so incredibly fickle and overdramatic on here.

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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by sapajo » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:09 pm

drc_007 wrote:
jgriffin wrote:I believe Cockers will go, almost certainly to France
Well the French Federation have launched a call for bids to become the next France head coach and succeed Philippe Saint-André.
He will have to lever Raphael Ibanez out of the pecking order.
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity

h's dad
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by h's dad » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:11 pm

jgriffin wrote:I am pleased to see that so many rely on their own view, not statistics nor probably a nuanced view of rugby - see Boy Dave's post for nuance and balance.
I have been a critic in the same way as Crumblies, as you know I believe that MOC crippled our progression with poor backs playbook and an abrasive personality. I am not the only poster on here who has been told by an ex-player how divisive and autocratic he was. Despite my view, and anecdotal evidence for it, statistics suggest it was a successful period for the club and one that many of the so-called 'superior' clubs would kill for. Consequently, I have to acknowledge, hopefully with humility, that an outsider would question my conclusions.
Performances are not just cyclical (good season, bad season)but fluctuate in the short-term; some events are unlikely (a WBP at Saffacens). Quins are an example of a team that have suffered a dip in form; Chiefs are having a good season, following a couple of indifferent ones; Bath remain arch-flaky; Stains are becoming erratic. It is perhaps a product of the salary cap, and in the nature of sport, that domination is not possible over an extended period of time.
My conclusion - statistically, Cockers has been unassailable. This season has highlighted concerns, the Board has acted as fast as they could - Phil Blake is strong evidence of that and a consequent improvement in play. The quest for a dominant DOR is illusory - they don't exist; Joe Schmidt is the nearest at present but he has always had top-line resources to draw on, we haven't, and we can't afford to.
I believe Cockers will go, almost certainly to France; exactly when? I'd put money on this summer, without fanfare, as likely as anything, but I think he will go before he is pushed, unless he has actually been pushed already. I do not think he will be replaced with anyone as committed, knowledgable and humble; be careful what you wish for.
Seminal post.
And although not all who have gone have shone, the French are happy to buy success from others and are certainly not spending their money on a rest home for failures.
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MrPartridge
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by MrPartridge » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:34 pm

backs playbook
Now that is a document I'd love to get my hands on…

Play 1: ask politely if the forwards will let the backs have the ball
Play 2: ask again
Play 3: on getting the ball proceed in a space invaders motion back and forwards across the pitch as many times as possible (see accompanying 40 minute film v Ulster away Jan 2015). At no point attempt to run forward or around a defensive player.
Play 4: kick the ball up the field…Blaine Scully ONLY to chase like a man possessed and compete… everyone else take it easy

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a glossary with the likes of 'miss-move' and 'offload' all followed with 'never ever try this'.

jgriffin
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by jgriffin » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:58 pm

MrPartridge wrote:
backs playbook
Now that is a document I'd love to get my hands on…

Play 1: ask politely if the forwards will let the backs have the ball
Play 2: ask again
Play 3: on getting the ball proceed in a space invaders motion back and forwards across the pitch as many times as possible (see accompanying 40 minute film v Ulster away Jan 2015). At no point attempt to run forward or around a defensive player.
Play 4: kick the ball up the field…Blaine Scully ONLY to chase like a man possessed and compete… everyone else take it easy

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a glossary with the likes of 'miss-move' and 'offload' all followed with 'never ever try this'.
Play 5: simple circle ball
Tried twice by 12T four years ago. We (MOC) got rid of him. :smt044
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kend
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by kend » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:09 am

MrPartridge wrote:
backs playbook
Now that is a document I'd love to get my hands on…

Play 1: ask politely if the forwards will let the backs have the ball
Play 2: ask again
Play 3: on getting the ball proceed in a space invaders motion back and forwards across the pitch as many times as possible (see accompanying 40 minute film v Ulster away Jan 2015). At no point attempt to run forward or around a defensive player.
Play 4: kick the ball up the field…Blaine Scully ONLY to chase like a man possessed and compete… everyone else take it easy

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a glossary with the likes of 'miss-move' and 'offload' all followed with 'never ever try this'.
I must have been watching a different game on Saturday. They passed the ball around quite a bit (the match stats show Tigers made twice as many passes as Sarries), so you can't accuse them of a lack of endeavour. But it is all but impossible to pass round a press defence, particularly the way Saracens implement it. For me the forwards just failed to create any space for the backs to use. Sarries committed few players to the ruck, whereas Tigers had to commit more to win clean ball, consequently the defensive line pretty much always outnumbered the attack. I'd have thought the forwards would have attacked more round the fringe of the ruck to pull in a few defenders. Despite that, Goneva got close twice and should really have scored one (it looked easier to stretch out and score when he flung it back inside).

Actually, up to the yellow card, things were actually going quite well - two tries conceded in that 10 minutes killed the game for Tigers.

The loss to Sarries isn't the issue really (how many really thought Tigers would win at the Allianz?). The loss of Ayerza, however (it looked like a bad hamstring tear), is a real blow.

What we really need now is a big contingent of support for the Wasps game - turn it into a home crowd!

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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by covrich » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:46 am

kend wrote:
What we really need now is a big contingent of support for the Wasps game - turn it into a home crowd!

I will be there, unfortunatley my family (wife my own parents) who are not big club rugby people have become Wasps Bandwagoners as it is local to us :smt011.

So I am going to get it in the neck I am sure if wasps tear us to pieces.

Exciting to play in such a huge game but I really think we are going to have to turn up properly for them last two games..

We can make 4th.. but we are going to have to pull it out the bag now and step up.. :smt026

ourla
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by ourla » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:48 am

I haven't seen the game yet but from what I am reading we played OK, could certainly have got much closer but two sin bins, missed opportunities, etc. cost us away from home against a very solid team. I don't think it changes anything or provides a massive change of opinion in any of us on this board. Our run of skinny wins provided those of a more positive mindsight plenty of opportunity to sing the praises of players and coaches. Saturdays loss allows the critics to have a go back. C'est la vie and all that cobblers.

One thought that does occur to me is which DoR exactly would be without critics in the Prem right now? Not many Benny.

Frankly, I haven't much of a clue who will win the thing right now. I honestly think it is wide open. We certainly shouldn't be good enough with our injuries and our inability to score tries but there is still a small part of me that hasn't given up hope.
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by Iain » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:31 pm

The problem is the back line lacking potency. That's just plain to see. Too one dimensional and too easy to defend against.

It is a problem. The club knows it's a problem. Hence Burke was removed and Mauger and his team appointed. There are issues, for which the rights actions are in place to sort it out.

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