Saracens v Tigers

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Smudge
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by Smudge »

Tiger23 wrote:-
I have been attending Tigers games for nearly 20 years and never been part of any chat room but feel compelled to join now to express my concerns over the current situation with the team.

Although we have had success domestically we have become very much second rate in Europe since 2010. Only two loosing quarter finals in six seasons has been a very poor return England's biggest club and we don't look close to turning it around in the near future (I accept the Salary Cap issue but given the impact on the French team of big spending French clubs I am not in favour of its abolition). Tigers compare poorly to the results of Saints (2QF, 1F) and Saracens (QF, 2SF, F) under the same restrictions.

My main concern is over our style of play. It is great to have a consistently excellent front row and I have cheered as loudly as others when we have won important games due to the power of our scrum and 5m lineouts (although in the last 2 years we have regressed rapidly in this area). However we have almost become a one trick pony and lack a Plan B - having such a good platform should make it easier for a backs unit to function not harder. Over the last several years our backs play has been well below par and our play after the 2nd or 3rd phase appears to be almost devoid of any effective attacking ideas at all - we honestly look totally clueless at times! The Saracens game just highlighted problems that have been growing for a long time - we could probably have played for another 80 minutes without scoring a try. I understand that MOC probably deserves much of the blame for this but surely something should have been done sooner to address an issue that has been evident for several years.

Loosing several who go one to become key players at other clubs – Ford, Waldrom, 12trees and probably Selvie, Gibson this year – is another very major concern. Kay and Healy's comments on Saturday indicated as much.

We have been on a downward trend for several seasons and ultimately the responsibility must rest with the DOR and I feel it is time for change. I hope the addition of Mauger next year will help but it may well not be enough. This is not a response to one poor season more a reflection on the way the team has been heading for several years. We are England's biggest club at which some blips in form are to be expected occasionally – a sustained downward spiral is not.
Welcome to the forum. An excellent post, spot on.
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h's dad
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by h's dad »

Smudge wrote::censored:? Smudge is 6 ft 7in and 19 stone.
Never been bullied in my life!
I did think that myself, I'm not suggesting that tb really pongs either.
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sapajo
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by sapajo »

Smudge wrote::censored:? Smudge is 6 ft 7in and 19 stone.
Never been bullied in my life!
Can't think why :smt017
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Tiger23
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by Tiger23 »

Kend wrote:- “Whether this represents a decline is very debatable. IMHO it's tough playing in a side with so many injuries in a couple of key positions, they have done pretty well in the circumstances. They remain in a very difficult position at 10, 12 and 13. I do agree with you about Mauger next season, but not for the same reasons. He's moving from an assistant coaching role for Crusaders to head coach at Tigers - bound to be a steep learning curve. Which is why the board would be mad to change DoR at the same time, even if they thought they had the justification (also very debatable. And potentially quite expensive!).”

I agree injuries have been a factor but Williams and Allen are not great attackers and Manu relies mainly on physical ability. Even with all 3 fit our overall attack plan from phased play is very poor.

I think we all agree that MOC was a problem but if RC is as big of a problem then surely the sooner he leaves the better allowing Mauger a fresh start. Overall I feel this is the case - the loss of key players being a very significant indicator.

h's dad – I agree that there could well have been several large houses in South Africa mysteriously donated to several Saracens players close relatives but we can only trust the RFU to police the salary cap as best they can. The several years of decline relates more to playing style and European results. Our power forward game has kept us competitive in the Prem but for me one title in 5 years (assuming we don't win this year) coupled with the poor style of play isn't good enough for England's biggest club. More importantly there hasn't been the slightest sign of improvement for a very long time.
Iain
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by Iain »

Sorry but I'm not sure we do all agree that O'Connor was a problem. I certainly don't. Our attack did some wonderful things under him and he was instrumental in us winning Premiership titles. He was valued highly by Cockers for a reason. He was approached to be in charge of one of the biggest clubs in the world for a reason.

One of our biggest problems is we didn't adequately replace him. Cockers was left with way too much to do, Burke was out of his depth and paid the price and Murphy looks like he has got too much on his plate too soon in his coaching career.

What encourages me for next season is that this looks like it has been recognised and addressed by the new appointments.
ourla
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by ourla »

I think we all agree that MOC was a problem but if RC is as big of a problem then surely the sooner he leaves the better
As Iain says we don't all agree that MOC was a problem. Also as pointed out getting shot of RC with Mauger making the step up wouldn't be sensible.

In the last two season we have made a poor show in an individual European match (drawing against Ulster at home and losing to Scarlets away) that has ultimately cost us a home semi and qualification. We've shown enough against the tops sides (Toulon and Clermont for example) to show that we are still good outfit. So it is disappointing to for results at home or against lesser option have ruined the chance to progress further. So I can just about understand you marking us as currently being "second rate" in Europe.

I don't buy any of this: "My main concern is over our style of play" and we "lack a Plan B" and "Loosing several who go one to become key players at other clubs". These have all been discussed and debunked numerous times.

Not all the criticism of Leicester Tigers is unjustified. Looking at the changes in the coaching in academy set up as an example tells you that. But by the same token our injuries have been horrendous and other clubs are better resourced than they were 5 years ago. Defensively for the most part we have been one of the best in the league. Our pack is still one of the best. So let's see what happens when with a hopefully a fit and new look back line and Mauger coaching next season. Not that this season is a write off in my book but if we are talking long term decline next season is the one of most interest.
Tigerbeat
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by Tigerbeat »

To be the best you have to beat the best. Other teams have improved and have got to the top of the tree.
How many teams have won the Premiership on more than one occasion.
Sarries, Quins, Sale, Newcastle have only won it once.
The nineties was dominated by Bath, the 2000-2010 by Tigers and Wasps.

Bath have had a lean period and are now starting to show form.

The performances have not been great but the overall standard of the Premiership has gone up. Leicester are in a period of transition and the changes made since MOC have not worked effectively.
Tigers have recognised this, bringing in Phil Blake for defensce and gone ever further in restructuring the setup for next season.

Not a bad season considering all that Tigers have contended with. Finishing in the top 6 is a reasonable goal. Anything else is a bonus.
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Smudge
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by Smudge »

Tigerbeat wrote:-
Not a bad season considering all that Tigers have contended with. Finishing in the top 6 is a reasonable goal. Anything else is a bonus.
Sorry mate but I can only say that what you seem to find acceptable is way short of my perception of reasonable.
Some injuries were unavoidable but why do we have so many more than any other club?
Why are so many good players leaving?
Why is our pack underperforming?
Why is there no attacking flair?
Where has the grit, dog and bloodymindedness gone?
Where is the craft, skill and nouse for which we are famous?
I said two or three years ago that RC would not make a good DOR as did several others. Lack of vision, management, direction etc.
It is not pleasant or enjoyable to keep pointing it out but we have so many members in agreement yet so many in denial on here that it gets very frustrating. We know we have some high quality players, they are not a great team.
Like the rest of my pals I will continue to travel, support and cheer the team to the last whistle but we all know we are nowhere near Tigers standard let alone our best.
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jgriffin
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by jgriffin »

fleabane wrote:Dayglow Mears and Ben all believe Vunipola has no case to answer (Rugby Tonight). Geneva after the play stopped, forearm to man on the ground, previous good behaviour 4 weeks reduced?
The problem is that they, and Dawson, are now happy with big bosh illegal clearouts ae the ruck. I have become horribly disenchanted with the BT team; probably only Flatman talks normal rugby now. Their egos have inflated horribly IMO, probably too much of the Sky team playbook. :smt019
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h's dad
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by h's dad »

Tiger23 wrote:h's dad – I agree that there could well have been several large houses in South Africa mysteriously donated to several Saracens players close relatives but we can only trust the RFU to police the salary cap as best they can. The several years of decline relates more to playing style and European results. Our power forward game has kept us competitive in the Prem but for me one title in 5 years (assuming we don't win this year) coupled with the poor style of play isn't good enough for England's biggest club. More importantly there hasn't been the slightest sign of improvement for a very long time.
I’m not sure what being England’s biggest club has to do with it any more, either in Europe, or domestically. And just what do you mean by biggest? Best supported, greatest turnover and (usually) most profitable, fair enough.

Best funded, most expensive squad and therefore the best players almost by definition? Certainly not the case in Europe. Domestically, should be joint top with several others (although there are a couple out in front ahead of us, we’ll see how that goes).
Biggest investors in infrastructure? I really don’t think so at the moment.
Biggest spend on the key backroom team? Certainly not.

Domestically we’ve aimed for a level playing field which has evened up things at home and disadvantaged clubs internationally.

Not sure how solid your point is in today’s climate. I’m not saying there aren’t problems, I’m just not sure how many of them are actually new ones that weren’t there, either hidden or out in the open, before.
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drc_007
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by drc_007 »

h's dad wrote:Best funded, most expensive squad and therefore the best players almost by definition? Certainly not the case in Europe.
Just to put this in perspective

The Direction nationale de contrôle de gestion (DNCG) - French rugby's financial watchdog have just reported on rugby finances.

http://www.lnr.fr/IMG/pdf/zRapportDNACG ... 150413.pdf

The report, which covers the spending of the top 30 clubs in France during the 2013/14 season, puts the average Top 14 club budget at €21.2m, with €7.4m of that going to player wages, which represents a €1m rise on the 2012-13 campaign. I suspect this will have risen again for the current season.

The biggest budget was €35M, but only two clubs actually made a profit.
Dave J
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Re: Saracens v Tigers

Post by Dave J »

I do not consider myself a "happy clapper" nor would I call myself a "doom monger". I try to, using that old cliche, take one game at a time and judge the season as a whole when it is over. I have never believed that any club has a divine right to win trophies and contrary to what some would have you believe there have been many seasons when Tigers have not been the best team. What I do expect is that Tigers start the season with the aim of being champions and qualifying for the top European competition and that come the business end of the season they are one of the contenders for both and do you know what? this season they are.

Now before some of you throw your toys out of the pram again I realise it's a long shot at the moment because they a very long way from looking like championship material and it is not all down to the horrendous injury issues this season although they are a significant factor. As has been stated elsewhere the club has addressed the poor back play by bringing in Mauger for next season which I'm sure we all hope will bring improvement. I don't yet believe there is a need for wholesale changes at the top, or one change in particular that some seem obsessed with, until we see whether the changes bear fruit.
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