Salvi

[tigerman]

What makes you think that?

[fleabane]

I listen carefully when people talk and I have a memory like an elephant.

[Crumblies]

I am amazed at the lengths some on this forum will go to defend Richard Cockerill from criticism.

The clue is in the title people - Director of Rugby. To Direct to give direction. This involves a multitude of responsibilities and like any director in any business those responsibilities get devolved and delegated to the people around you, but at the end of the day the buck stops with you. How can people now start accusing Aaron Mauger of being responsible for the shambles which now seems to surround Julian Salvis negotiations? If Richard Cockerill has devolved responsibility to Simon Cohen to take charge of negotiations with Julian Salvi and if Simon Cohen has made him a bottom line offer, then ok, but Richard Cockerill needs to make sure he is aware of that before making public pronouncements. If Richard Cockerill has or knows that recruitment policy now lies with Aaaron Mauger and Aaaron Mauger has deemed that with the salary cap Julian is now surplus to requirements then again Richard Cockeril needs to make sure he is aware of that before making public pronouncements. Like I said the buck stops with him.

JG I have long respected your opinion on a range of issues but on Richard Cockerill I am amazed at the lengths you will go to to defend him when you have been so hostile to Loffreda, Meyer and O'Connor.

Here again we have another shambles with negotiations to keep a very good player who has given 100% to the tigers. The list is growing Moody, Vesty, Hipkiss, Twelvetrees, Waldrum, Castrogiavanni, Ford, Gibson and now Salvi. Should all of those have been kept absolutely not but it is the apparent unpleasantness surrounding all their departures that is disturbing and all under Cockerills leadership as Director of Rugby. don't try to put the blame on others.

[dunks43]

The list is growing Moody, Vesty, Hipkiss, Twelvetrees, Waldrum, Castrogiavanni, Ford, Gibson and now Salvi.

How do you know the situation with all these ?

You would say good business in moody, vesty & hipkiss going, as they didnt exactly set the world alight when they went.
Castro...again lets be honest he wanted to renegade on the last year of his contract, was he the form player in his position ?
Ford.. Moved because of his dad and lets be honest he had some howlers for us with the boot

Gone are the days of a player just playing for one team.

How do you not know that for example that any of these wanted a salary of say 150k a year, but tigers could not pay it due to the salary cap ?

[MurphysLaw]

I am amazed by people who continue to attribute blame to whoever for situations where they are not in a position to know the facts or details, but instead are happy to rely on rumours and gossip.

[TigerCam]

I am amazed at the lengths some on this forum will go to defend Richard Cockerill from criticism.

The clue is in the title people - Director of Rugby. To Direct to give direction. This involves a multitude of responsibilities and like any director in any business those responsibilities get devolved and delegated to the people around you, but at the end of the day the buck stops with you. How can people now start accusing Aaron Mauger of being responsible for the shambles which now seems to surround Julian Salvis negotiations? If Richard Cockerill has devolved responsibility to Simon Cohen to take charge of negotiations with Julian Salvi and if Simon Cohen has made him a bottom line offer, then ok, but Richard Cockerill needs to make sure he is aware of that before making public pronouncements. If Richard Cockerill has or knows that recruitment policy now lies with Aaaron Mauger and Aaaron Mauger has deemed that with the salary cap Julian is now surplus to requirements then again Richard Cockeril needs to make sure he is aware of that before making public pronouncements. Like I said the buck stops with him.

JG I have long respected your opinion on a range of issues but on Richard Cockerill I am amazed at the lengths you will go to to defend him when you have been so hostile to Loffreda, Meyer and O'Connor.

Here again we have another shambles with negotiations to keep a very good player who has given 100% to the tigers. The list is growing Moody, Vesty, Hipkiss, Twelvetrees, Waldrum, Castrogiavanni, Ford, Gibson and now Salvi. Should all of those have been kept absolutely not but it is the apparent unpleasantness surrounding all their departures that is disturbing and all under Cockerills leadership as Director of Rugby. don't try to put the blame on others.

Man speak with straight tongue!! Couldn't agree more!!

[Red Boots]

In my experience every exit from every organisation is unpleasant - unless you are going to stud.

[jgriffin]

I am amazed at the lengths some on this forum will go to defend Richard Cockerill from criticism.

The clue is in the title people - Director of Rugby. To Direct to give direction. This involves a multitude of responsibilities and like any director in any business those responsibilities get devolved and delegated to the people around you, but at the end of the day the buck stops with you. How can people now start accusing Aaron Mauger of being responsible for the shambles which now seems to surround Julian Salvis negotiations? If Richard Cockerill has devolved responsibility to Simon Cohen to take charge of negotiations with Julian Salvi and if Simon Cohen has made him a bottom line offer, then ok, but Richard Cockerill needs to make sure he is aware of that before making public pronouncements. If Richard Cockerill has or knows that recruitment policy now lies with Aaaron Mauger and Aaaron Mauger has deemed that with the salary cap Julian is now surplus to requirements then again Richard Cockeril needs to make sure he is aware of that before making public pronouncements. Like I said the buck stops with him.

JG I have long respected your opinion on a range of issues but on Richard Cockerill I am amazed at the lengths you will go to to defend him when you have been so hostile to Loffreda, Meyer and O'Connor.

Here again we have another shambles with negotiations to keep a very good player who has given 100% to the tigers. The list is growing Moody, Vesty, Hipkiss, Twelvetrees, Waldrum, Castrogiavanni, Ford, Gibson and now Salvi. Should all of those have been kept absolutely not but it is the apparent unpleasantness surrounding all their departures that is disturbing and all under Cockerills leadership as Director of Rugby. don't try to put the blame on others.

If you wish me to post at length taking every issue, I will. However:
1 Loffreda was clearly losing the squad after a month, why exactly we got to know some dribs and drabs later and may never know the real story behind the scenes.
2 Meyer was here a short time and did little except permanently drop TV and have a dire pingpong game plan that produced some awful games.
3 MOC I have always criticised as a one-dimensional, shouty coach and an embarrassment to fans with his pottymouth (I don't know if you attended away games in this period, I did and felt I had to apologise to home fans for MOCs appalling language in public). I did not know until somewhat later exactly how divisive a character he was behind the scenes as I even discounted Moody's biased account until I had info from someone in the organisation.
4 Cockerill has an established win record second to none in the AP. I don't have to like the bloke but I have to respect and support his record.
5 I totally reject your player list and the imputations.
Cockerill is almost certainly not 100% squeaky clean, but neither does he deserve some of the irrational abuse of some posters on here.

[Crumblies]

So JG let me see if I've got this straight:

The acrimony surrounding the departure of Lewis Moody and the discontent expressed in his autobiography was all down to Matt O'Connor and Lewis has no issue with Cockerill's involvement despite him being DOR at the time, is that your understanding from your reliable sources? And are you maintaining the same applies to Vesty, Hipkiss, Castro, Waldrom and Twelvetrees so again none of these players had any reason to be disgruntled with Cockerill?

Whilst I agree with most of your comments regarding Loffreda, Meyer and O'Connor I am not as convinced as you that the success gained by Tigers during the RC's reign as DOR can be attributed to him.

[S4llyC]

So Crumblies let me see if I've got this straight:

Any potential acrimony between the club and departing players is down to Cockers.

Any successes by the Club over the last umpteen season are nothing to do with Cockers.

Yeah, right. OK. Got it.

[snoopster]

The clue is in the title people - Director of Rugby. To Direct to give direction. This involves a multitude of responsibilities and like any director in any business those responsibilities get devolved and delegated to the people around you, but at the end of the day the buck stops with you. How can people now start accusing Aaron Mauger of being responsible for the shambles which now seems to surround Julian Salvis negotiations? If Richard Cockerill has devolved responsibility to Simon Cohen to take charge of negotiations with Julian Salvi and if Simon Cohen has made him a bottom line offer, then ok, but Richard Cockerill needs to make sure he is aware of that before making public pronouncements. If Richard Cockerill has or knows that recruitment policy now lies with Aaaron Mauger and Aaaron Mauger has deemed that with the salary cap Julian is now surplus to requirements then again Richard Cockeril needs to make sure he is aware of that before making public pronouncements. Like I said the buck stops with him.

Did Cockerill devolve authority to Cohen?
My impression was Cohen was given the authority by the Board, due to his expertise - Cockerill identifies the players he wishes to sign or retain and how important he sees them to the team, then Cohen's job is to sort out the terms and get the deal signed, or move on if the player wants too much.

Here again we have another shambles with negotiations to keep a very good player who has given 100% to the tigers. The list is growing Moody, Vesty, Hipkiss, Twelvetrees, Waldrum, Castrogiavanni, Ford, Gibson and now Salvi. Should all of those have been kept absolutely not but it is the apparent unpleasantness surrounding all their departures that is disturbing and all under Cockerills leadership as Director of Rugby. don't try to put the blame on others.

How many of those players did the club want to retain? And on the terms those players wanted?
Moody was a good player but very injury prone and an England captain at the time - so very expensive and not available much.
Vesty - good player to have around but he was never going to be first choice and Bath could offer him more money and more game time.
Hipkiss - wasn't he out of favour before he signed for Bath. He was never going to be first choice ahead of Tuilagi but I'd guess was on first choice wages and probably not interested in signing for longer at reduced wages and to be a back up when he was trying to get picked by England.
Twelvetrees - He was happy to stay, till Glaws offered him more then he signed for them. He wasn't consistent enough to be first choice or Tigers then and hasn't improved in that regard, in my opinion since.
Waldrum - Wasn't wanted by the club.
Castrogiavanni - Should Tigers have dropped Cole for him?
Ford - a shame he left, what should Tigers have done that they didn't do?
Gibson - out bid by Saints, at a time when Tigers seem to be reorganising. Should he have been kept at the cost of Mauger's plans?
Salvi - Not sure what happened, my impression is he was waying up his options and took to long? If so, should Tigers miss out on alternatives for as long as it takes a player to make up his mind? Does Mauger rate him above O'Conner?

To be honest, most of the players you listed seem to be out of sentiment, that the club should have kept them around, paying them a big chunk of the available budget because of sentiment? What if Manu had let as their was no money for him due to Hipkiss's bumper deal?

[Noggs]

I am amazed by people who continue to attribute blame to whoever for situations where they are not in a position to know the facts or details, but instead are happy to rely on rumours and gossip.

Never a truer word....

[kornboy130]

What we have is two camps of people:

Those who blame Cockerill for a lot of faults at the club.
AND
Those who praise Cockerill for the trphies won etc during his tenure.

Then there's a 3rd group of us - a tiny minority, who can see he's pretty great at some bits and pretty pants at others and would like to see him continue being good at some bits and be better at his weak points - of which a few come throguh from time to time.

[h's dad]

I am amazed at the lengths some on this forum will go to defend Richard Cockerill from criticism.

The clue is in the title people - Director of Rugby. To Direct to give direction. This involves a multitude of responsibilities and like any director in any business those responsibilities get devolved and delegated to the people around you, but at the end of the day the buck stops with you. ...

Job titles are not the best of clues. Roles carrying the title manager, controller or director where actual power and responsibility amounts to very little are widespread. Director is often used as a term for the lowest level of executive. The real power, authority and responsibility is with the board of directors. Richard Cockerill is not a member of the board of directors for Leicester Football Club plc.

[jgriffin]

So JG let me see if I've got this straight:

The acrimony surrounding the departure of Lewis Moody and the discontent expressed in his autobiography was all down to Matt O'Connor and Lewis has no issue with Cockerill's involvement despite him being DOR at the time, is that your understanding from your reliable sources? And are you maintaining the same applies to Vesty, Hipkiss, Castro, Waldrom and Twelvetrees so again none of these players had any reason to be disgruntled with Cockerill?

Whilst I agree with most of your comments regarding Loffreda, Meyer and O'Connor I am not as convinced as you that the success gained by Tigers during the RC's reign as DOR can be attributed to him.

I meant I did not take Moody's account of MOC being the sole talker (and RC not speaking) at his termination interview, and seeming to run the show, as being gospel and reliable. There was no corroboration. Moody may well hate RC's guts too.
The divisive nature of MOC was related to me later, and not directly about Moody, more about the nature of relationships at Oval Park, and some players' dislike of MOC, and why. Why I was inclined to believe my informant is that he had no axe to grind, and info turned out to be accurate later.
I do not know the situation with any of those players named except for stuff that is already in the public domain, but that information makes it clear that each case is quite different, and to lump them together is risible. In the case of 12T it appeared that RC is the one to be disgruntled at Billy's seeming duplicity.
The public information is that RC has been DOR through a successful period of the club's history, no DOR in the modern era of AP being better. If you know other stuff to the contrary in any of these cases, or that success can be directy attributed elsewhere, then we need to know, so we can better judge RC.
I most certainly do not believe that RC can be both an efficient DOR and a complete saint, or anywhere near it.
I guess I am tryin to combat the absolutism on this forum, the irrational Cockers-haters, and also those who seem to confer passing deification on flawed humans.