Cockerill talks about young players

[Rykard]

in the interviews after the LV some of the 'younger' players were saying how it was a step up , this comment was also used after AP debuts. what we are lacking is an effective 'A' league, the jump between the academy and AP is too great in most cases...

[4071]

Caught on rugby hour last night a conversation about the Academy. Was said that the first team coaches will work more with the academy and more work will be done to smooth the pathway from the academy to the first team. Especially important it was stated for the backs. Certainly sounds like along with the new head of the academy there is a recognition that improvements and throughput can be improved.

And this is genuinely promising. Because whatever the club was doing before simply wasn't working and changes needed to be implemented.

[4071]

in the interviews after the LV some of the 'younger' players were saying how it was a step up , this comment was also used after AP debuts. what we are lacking is an effective 'A' league, the jump between the academy and AP is too great in most cases...

Absolutely. It's fine having players picking up experience separately at a lower level in the Championship, but it has not previously been beyond the Premiership clubs to organise a full A League programme AND allow dual registration, giving players at the same club greater exposure to playing alongside seniors and fellow academy graduates under the coaching regime of that particular club.

The loss of a full A League has been a shame.

[4071]

The continuing controversy about concussion
proves that even senior players are having difficulty in adapting to the pace and stamina required by professionals in the modern game.

You think concussion is about not having pace or stamina?

I think medical consensus is that it's related to getting a bang on the head, and that players are sucesptible to that regardless of their fitness or stamina.

Unless you think that, for example, all-time great and repeat concussion victim Richie McCaw has had career-long difficulty adapting to the pace and stamina requirements of the modern game?

[Rykard]

Caught on rugby hour last night a conversation about the Academy. Was said that the first team coaches will work more with the academy and more work will be done to smooth the pathway from the academy to the first team. Especially important it was stated for the backs. Certainly sounds like along with the new head of the academy there is a recognition that improvements and throughput can be improved.

And this is genuinely promising. Because whatever the club was doing before simply wasn't working and changes needed to be implemented.

to expand slightly.

they weren't expecting anymore academy coaches, but were getting the first team coaches (esp. Smurph) and players more involved.

[tigerburnie]

The loss of a full A League has been a shame.

There never has been a full "A" league, when the game went pro and leagues were introduced, several clubs insisted they could not field an "A" side and so a smaller one was put forward for those who could "afford" to participate.
Maybe now some of those clubs are in a position to pay more as they have financial "investors", perhaps the PRL could re visit this.

[RagingBull]

I like what I am hearing from Brett Deacon and Glynn.

Both being a lot more vocal about the Younger players and How they want them to be brought up.

Cohen on Radio Leicester saying that Glynn isn't wanting more academy coaches but instead wanting the first team coaches to do more along with the senior Players.

Cohen saying Glynn believes the best way to help transition would be to have the likes of Murphy, Blake and Blaze helping out every so often.

IMO this sounds like massive progression in that department.

Hopefully the proof will be in the pudding.

[4071]

I like what I am hearing from Brett Deacon and Glynn.

Both being a lot more vocal about the Younger players and How they want them to be brought up.

Cohen on Radio Leicester saying that Glynn isn't wanting more academy coaches but instead wanting the first team coaches to do more along with the senior Players.

Cohen saying Glynn believes the best way to help transition would be to have the likes of Murphy, Blake and Blaze helping out every so often.

IMO this sounds like massive progression in that department.

Hopefully the proof will be in the pudding.

That's exactly what's required. The issue has never been about producing good academy players - the regular successes of the academy and regular production line of age-grade players is proof of that - the issue has been about the transition to the first team.

More academy coaching wouldn't change a thing. More integration with first team coaches just might.

I feel more optimistic when I hear things like this than when I hear some empty waffle about it being hard to bring young players through.

[The Boy Dave]

That's exactly what's required. The issue has never been about producing good academy players - the regular successes of the academy and regular production line of age-grade players is proof of that - the issue has been about the transition to the first team.

More academy coaching wouldn't change a thing. More integration with first team coaches just might.

I feel more optimistic when I hear things like this than when I hear some empty waffle about it being hard to bring young players through.

No coaches stopped Manu, Croft or Cole getting through, so in the end it is about players producing, as well as coaches.
This transition is there to be made at any time if the player is good enough.
What you fail to include is the pressure on staff, the pressure on resources, balancing what proven players you already have and being expected to predict the future.
I wouldn't swap players such as Lewington or Forsyth for anyone in the current squad, so not much has been wrong in the transition process IMO.
Would I swap George Ford for Burns? Not sure, but one thing I do know is I would be without a fly half right now if I chose Ford.
I'd like them both, but again resources will not allow.

[ourla]

No coaches stopped Manu, Croft or Cole getting through, so in the end it is about players producing, as well as coaches.
This transition is there to be made at any time if the player is good enough.

I don't think anybody is saying it is not possible for players to make the transition. Just that more could if things were done a little differently.

[tigerburnie]

I don't see anyone recently that has been hard done by, examples of Ford and Twelvetrees, both were behind better players who were current internationals. Both chose to leave and to be honest we have moved on and so have they. All this gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands is frankly, pointless. If a player is seen as fitting in to the team plan, they will get the shirt, if not then they either wait or move on, no ones fault, just all part of running a team and players choosing what they see as the best option.

[4071]

examples of Ford and Twelvetrees, both were behind better players who were current internationals. Both chose to leave

And that is exactly the difference between the two schools of thought on this.

One school believes only in the next game. This is very much Cockerill's mantra, and it dictates that the most important thing - to the exclusion of all else - is winning the next game and picking the strongest XV.

The other school believes in looking further forward, and is willing to accept hiccups along the way - even the occasional loss - for future gains. This school believes that if you have an immensely talented player who has not yet fulfilled that talent, then there is more to gain by developing him than simply by not picking him until he is ready.


The people who could look at a talent like Ford (and to a lesser extent 12T) and ignore their potential simply because they are not already better than the older and more experienced player ahead of them will obviously think that it's right to sacrifice the future for the present. Others will look at the way Ford and 12T have gone on to international honours and developed as players and regret the short-sightedness that meant they were doing that for other clubs.

[4071]

I wouldn't swap players such as Lewington or Forsyth for anyone in the current squad, so not much has been wrong in the transition process IMO.

There's the default pro-club comment.

Sure, it always ends up being debateable and I can't say that your opinion is wrong. You might genuinely think that we're better off having Camacho than Lewington. I can't prove otherwise.

Personally, I would take Lewington over Camacho. And over Loamanu, Scully, Morris, Benjamin, Hamilton and Thompstone. All imports of varying degrees of success but not one of them have ever been indispensible (well, Hamilton did have a great period a fair few years ago). They are all currently decent club-level players. And if we're going to fill the squad with decent club-level players, I'd rather we did it with ones that we made, not ones that we imported.

[RagingBull]

Wouldn't have him over Scully or Morris ATM.

[Grinsteadtiger]

Just a quick scan through some player stats on the Official site revealed the following:
Ben Youngs looks like he became a more regular player in 2009-2010 season playing 32 games aged 21.
Manu Tuilagi looks like he became a regular player in 2011 2012 season playing 26 games aged 19.

I know they are two totally different types of player etc. and the demands on their bodies are different BUT Ben has played 32,21,15,19,25,16 games in all competitions with a total of 158 appearances. Manu has played 26,13,23,10,4 in all competitions with a total of 77 appearences.

Both came up from the academy however Ben was two years older when he became a consistent first team player. Could this two year difference be significant? I remember at the time Cockers was very reluctant to push Manu into the first team and preferred to nurture his talent and progress him slowly. Great when he burst on to the scene he was a tremendous talent and still is the difference is teams now know him his talents, strengths and weaknesses and can plan accordingly. Would his body have been able to cope better if he were two years older? I dont know the answer to that and I doubt weather any one does.

I have trained kids personally from the age of 8 up to 15 in Triathlon and believe me they need to be kerbed from trying to do too much before their bodies can cope. (parents and spectators are the worst problems). Maybe we as rugby fans are beginning to expect too much from our talented youngsters. I do not personally believe that the young body at 19 can be expected to take the punishment that the modern professional game dishes out week in week out without something giving.

How likely are we to see any of todays players (like our good old trio of Chuter Rowntree and White) achieving their type of achievements

Yes we need to blood academy players but NOT as a detriment to their health and well being. Believe it or not one day they will have to live a life outside of sport.

Am now waiting to be attacked from all angles. (It is my opinion and I will stand by it)